Gearbox question for people with large engines

[paulcalf]

Hi
I've got a 2110cc engine in my bus, currently with a standard gearbox.

I'm planning on getting a more suitable gearbox with different ratios, so would like the advice of van owners who have done the same please.

What have you fitted and what works best ratio wise?
What difference does it make to engine running temp?
What difference does it make to driving the van?

I'm probably going to get one from bears motorsport rather than spend a fortune on an old used 2l box.

All advice gratefully received, ideally I would like advice from people who have driven vans with big engines and non standard gearboxes.

Thanks for looking

Paul

 

[Trikky2]

Have a search on here. This subject has come up before

 

[paulcalf]

Tricky2 thanks I've found that thread and asked the question in there now.

I'm trying to find people who have put an up rated gearbox in a van with a big engine: 2110 or bigger. Then I'll know whether it is worth doing

 

[Trikky2]

Hi Paulcalf, theres several threads on this subject - but yes if your running a bigger engine anything from 1776 upwards its a good idea to fit a gearbox with a longer final drive.

This is because the extra power means you can run at higher speeds with lower engine rpm, which makes for quieter, more relaxed and, driven gently, more economical cruising.

I am currently running a 2 liter plus T1 engine with an 091 cw/pinion set fitted as used on the 2 liter T4 engined late bays and was pleasantly surprised to find that driving on a touring holiday the mpg actually improved from 25 to 28 average.

The various gearboxes all use much the same internals and its the cw/pinion set that changes the gearing. Fortunately the cw/pinions are interchangeable so if you have a good box from say a 1600 it can be fitted with a replacement longer final drive.

Despite running in southern europe and using only the stock oil cooler I have no problems with cooling.

Here is a summary of the different gearboxes out there but, as I said, its really only the final drive that changes the overall gearing.

1.6 liter and 1.7 liter

1st 3.80
2nd 2.06
3rd 1.26
4th 0.89
final drive 5.375
Overall in top 4.407



1.8 liter

1st 3.78
2nd 2.06
3rd 1.26
4th 0.89
Final drive 4.86



2 liter

1st 3.78
2nd 2.06
3rd 1.26
Top 0.88
final drive 4.57
Overall in top 4.02

Final drive ratios for all gearboxes; 95%of 1-4th gearsets are the same just the dif that changes much

1600 engine

CA - 5.375 68-71

CB - 5.857 68-71

CC - 5.375 68-71

CD - 5.857 68-71

CE - 5.428 72-75

CF - 5.857 72-75

CG - 5.375 72-75

CH - 5.857 72-75



1700 engine

CK - 5.375 72-73

CL - 5.375 72-73



1800 engine

CM - 4.857 74-75

CN - 4.857 74-75



2000 engine

CP - 4.571 76-79

CT - 4.571 76-79



1600 engine

CU - 5.428 76-79

CV - 5.428 76-79

CW - 5.857 76-79

CX - 5.857 76-79

Code Engine 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Rev. Final Years
CA 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.61 5.375 68-71
CB 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.61 5.857 68-71
CC 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.61 5.375 68-71
CD 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.61 5.857 68-71
CE 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.428 72-75
CF 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.857 72-75
CG 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.375 72-75
CH 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.857 72-75
CK 1700 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.375 72-73
CL 1700 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.375 72-75
CM 1800 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.89 3.80 4.857 74-75
CN 1800 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.89 3.80 4.857 72-75
CP 2000 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.88 3.28 4.571 76-79
CT 2000 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.88 3.28 4.571 76-79
CU 1600 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.28 5.428 76-79
CV 1600 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.28 5.428 76-79
CW 1600 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.28 5.857 76-79
CX 1600 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.28 5.857 76-79

 

[paulcalf]

Trikky2

Thank you so much, that is just the info I needed from someone who has actually done it!

I've posted the same q on another forum and people are saying my existing gear box is fine and why change. So I'm really pleased someone who has done a similar box change with a similar engine has given some sound advice. Thank you so much, I'll make sure I get the correct longer final drive fitted.

Paul

Hi Paulcalf, theres several threads on this subject - but yes if your running a bigger engine anything from 1776 upwards its a good idea to fit a gearbox with a longer final drive.

This is because the extra power means you can run at higher speeds with lower engine rpm, which makes for quieter, more relaxed and, driven gently, more economical cruising.

I am currently running a 2 liter plus T1 engine with an 091 cw/pinion set fitted as used on the 2 liter T4 engined late bays and was pleasantly surprised to find that driving on a touring holiday the mpg actually improved from 25 to 28 average.

The various gearboxes all use much the same internals and its the cw/pinion set that changes the gearing. Fortunately the cw/pinions are interchangeable so if you have a good box from say a 1600 it can be fitted with a replacement longer final drive.

Despite running in southern europe and using only the stock oil cooler I have no problems with cooling.

Here is a summary of the different gearboxes out there but, as I said, its really only the final drive that changes the overall gearing.

1.6 liter and 1.7 liter

1st 3.80
2nd 2.06
3rd 1.26
4th 0.89
final drive 5.375
Overall in top 4.407



1.8 liter

1st 3.78
2nd 2.06
3rd 1.26
4th 0.89
Final drive 4.86



2 liter

1st 3.78
2nd 2.06
3rd 1.26
Top 0.88
final drive 4.57
Overall in top 4.02

Final drive ratios for all gearboxes; 95%of 1-4th gearsets are the same just the dif that changes much

1600 engine

CA - 5.375 68-71

CB - 5.857 68-71

CC - 5.375 68-71

CD - 5.857 68-71

CE - 5.428 72-75

CF - 5.857 72-75

CG - 5.375 72-75

CH - 5.857 72-75



1700 engine

CK - 5.375 72-73

CL - 5.375 72-73



1800 engine

CM - 4.857 74-75

CN - 4.857 74-75



2000 engine

CP - 4.571 76-79

CT - 4.571 76-79



1600 engine

CU - 5.428 76-79

CV - 5.428 76-79

CW - 5.857 76-79

CX - 5.857 76-79

Code Engine 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Rev. Final Years
CA 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.61 5.375 68-71
CB 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.61 5.857 68-71
CC 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.61 5.375 68-71
CD 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.61 5.857 68-71
CE 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.428 72-75
CF 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.857 72-75
CG 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.375 72-75
CH 1600 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.857 72-75
CK 1700 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.375 72-73
CL 1700 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.80 5.375 72-75
CM 1800 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.89 3.80 4.857 74-75
CN 1800 3.80 2.06 1.26 0.89 3.80 4.857 72-75
CP 2000 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.88 3.28 4.571 76-79
CT 2000 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.88 3.28 4.571 76-79
CU 1600 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.28 5.428 76-79
CV 1600 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.28 5.428 76-79
CW 1600 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.28 5.857 76-79
CX 1600 3.78 2.06 1.26 0.82 3.28 5.857 76-79

 

[paulcalf]

Trikky2

Thank you so much, that is just the info I needed from someone who has actually done it!

I've posted the same q on another forum and people are saying my existing gear box is fine and why change. So I'm really pleased someone who has done a similar box change with a similar engine has given some sound advice. Thank you so much, I'll make sure I get the correct longer final drive fitted.

Paul

Sorry for the double post!

[

 

[petegee56]

I have a 1955 in mine and ran it on the stock gearbox for a little while and found it a real pain in the ass to drive,it felt like it ran out of gearing really quickly. I fitted a 091 box and its much much better. 091 box should cost you about 500 - 600 quid and are straight forward to fit

Pete

 

[paulcalf]

Trikky2

I've checked the notes I made when speaking to the bloke who I'll get to build my box.

He says the same as you and suggests using a 4.57 final drive ring and pinion gear (same as used on a 2l box).

There is one bit in your post that i don't understand: I am currently running a 2 liter plus T1 engine with an 091 cw/pinion set fitted as used on the 2 liter T4 engined late bays

Can you explain this bit for me please as I can't see 091 CW/pinion in any of your info and don't really know what it is. I assume 091 is a code that describes a gear box or gear code? Anyway i'm looking forward to a slight increase in mpg as well as the improved driveability from a new gear box! Im glad the change you have made hasn't caused any overheating problems, as i was slightly worried about this.


I would just like to really thank you again as you have given me great information based on actual experience.

Thanks to everyone else who has replied as well

Paul

Hi Paulcalf, theres several threads on this subject - but yes if your running a bigger engine anything from 1776 upwards its a good idea to fit a gearbox with a longer final drive.

This is because the extra power means you can run at higher speeds with lower engine rpm, which makes for quieter, more relaxed and, driven gently, more economical cruising.

I am currently running a 2 liter plus T1 engine with an 091 cw/pinion set fitted as used on the 2 liter T4 engined late bays and was pleasantly surprised to find that driving on a touring holiday the mpg actually improved from 25 to 28 average.

The various gearboxes all use much the same internals and its the cw/pinion set that changes the gearing. Fortunately the cw/pinions are interchangeable so if you have a good box from say a 1600 it can be fitted with a replacement longer final drive.

Despite running in southern europe and using only the stock oil cooler I have no problems with cooling.

 

[Trikky2]

Yes 091 is the ref number of the six rib box as fitted to factory stock 2 liter buses which used the 4.57 final drive.

 

[paulcalf]

Great thanks again!

Yes 091 is the ref number of the six rib box as fitted to factory stock 2 liter buses which used the 4.57 final drive.

 

[Alex VW Heritage]

I run an 091 in my bus with a 2276cc T1 engine. it has a longer 3rd and 4th fitted.

The easiest way iof doing a box with no conversion greief is a freeway flyer. a direct replacement for your box but with the 091 gearset:

http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Rancho-T2-Freeway-Flyer-002-Gearbox-68-71-T1-T2-engine-AC300002FF_act_shop.product_pID_71864255_lang_EN_country_GB.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[paulcalf]

Sounds interesting

What does longer 3rd & 4th mean in real terms driving a bus?

I run an 091 in my bus with a 2276cc T1 engine. it has a longer 3rd and 4th fitted.

The easiest way iof doing a box with no conversion greief is a freeway flyer. a direct replacement for your box but with the 091 gearset:

http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Rancho-T2-Freeway-Flyer-002-Gearbox-68-71-T1-T2-engine-AC300002FF_act_shop.product_pID_71864255_lang_EN_country_GB.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Alex VW Heritage]

Sounds interesting

What does longer 3rd & 4th mean in real terms driving a bus?

I run an 091 in my bus with a 2276cc T1 engine. it has a longer 3rd and 4th fitted.

The easiest way iof doing a box with no conversion greief is a freeway flyer. a direct replacement for your box but with the 091 gearset:

http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Rancho-T2-Freeway-Flyer-002-Gearbox-68-71-T1-T2-engine-AC300002FF_act_shop.product_pID_71864255_lang_EN_country_GB.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The longer 3rd and 4th was a specially designed box for me and the way i drive, It gives LOTS of legs on the motorway and means i can comfortablly cruise along the autobhan at 80 to 90mph in the cooler temps.

As you'll hear from most the 091 gearsets would be ideal for what your trying to do.

 

[paulcalf]

Alex

Thanks. It's all getting even more confusing now!

Trikky2's info says:
2 liter
1st 3.78
2nd 2.06
3rd 1.26
Top 0.88
final drive 4.57
Overall in top 4.02

Is the freeway flyer the same as the 2l 091 box then? The spec isn't listed on the website
You have a specially designed box with a longer 3rd & 4th gear - which is good for motorways?
Someone else has said i want a longer top gear: 0.82, but the final drive to be 4.57 which is the same as the 2l box

I hope you can clarify what works best as you are recommending a freeway flyer, but then saying you have a specially designed gear box.

Thanks for your input

Paul


The longer 3rd and 4th was a specially designed box for me and the way i drive, It gives LOTS of legs on the motorway and means i can comfortablly cruise along the autobhan at 80 to 90mph in the cooler temps.

As you'll hear from most the 091 gearsets would be ideal for what your trying to do.[/quote]

 

[Alex VW Heritage]

I had my box built for me by Pete at Cogbox as at the time we were not Rancho stockists nor was I am employee.

The longer fourth and the 4.57 ring and pinion will be great on the motorway but a pain around town as you'll find the 30mph is somewhere between 3rd and 4th and you'll struggle. This is why i think a freeway flyer is the way to go.

Taken straight from our website:

Rancho T2 ''002 Freeway Flyer'' Gearbox for '68-'71 T2.
A standard strength gearbox but fitted with a special high ratio 4.57 Ring&Pinion (same as later 2.0 ''091'' gearbox) to reduce engine RPM at higher speeds. Ideal for early vehicles with performance Type1/2 engine. Supplied with Late Clutch tube so use later clutch. Without ''Ears'' on bellhousing, and short T1/1600 input shaft, for 68-71 models
An additional Exchange Surcharge (£350+Vat) is charged at sale which is refunded on return of old unit in rebuildable condition.

If you need anything clarifying or more information you can call Heritage and ask for me or email [email protected]

Thanks

Alex

 

[maddog]

My Dormy runs a 2276cc - got a 091 2.0L box, let Pete @Cogbox to do his stuff, super diff etc but i believe standard gearing specs and runs fine around town, on motorway and on track

 

[paulcalf]

Maddog and Alex

Thanks for your replies

Paul

My Dormy runs a 2276cc - got a 091 2.0L box, let Pete @Cogbox to do his stuff, super diff etc but i believe standard gearing specs and runs fine around town, on motorway and on track

 

[Marriedblonde]

If I ever get any enthusiasm back to get my bus on the road I am going for the freeway flyer...

 

[creationblue]

I got a 6rib and its great in my 1776 now with 195/70/15 rear tyres

 

[paulcalf]

New Gearbox now fitted, so I thought i'd update this thread with the impact it has made.

New box was built by Bears and is based on an 002 box with same gears as standard, except 4.57 ring & pinion (apparently it's only the final drive that alters the overall gearing).

Tyres are 185/65 R15 88T. Engine is 2110cc type 1. Van is a bay window, slightly lowered.
New gearbox: 70mph @ 3,200 rpm. Doing 105 Miles on motorway & a roads at 70mph produces oil temp of 80c
Old gearbox: 70mph @ 4,000rpm. Doing the same 105 mile journey as above produced oil temp of 90-95c

Summary: Very pleased with gearbox so far. I would thoroughly recommend Bears. I'm glad I went this route rather than fitting a 2nd hand 009 gearbox or buying a freeway flyer from VW heritage. New box feels nice and tight. A gearbox with 4.57 final drive is better suited for a 2110cc engine than a 1600 box. Engine temperature has gone down as engine not working so hard for same driving speed - some thought it would run hotter as fan wouldn't turn as fast. Fuel economy has improved by approx 2.5l of fuel per 100miles. I've not done much driving around 'town' yet.

I hope this info will be helpful for people with large engines who are considering a new gearbox. I obviously don't drive the van for fuel efficiency but I'm happy it is slightly more efficient now. If any of you need to justify the cost of a new gearbox to yourselves or your other halves then i roughly calculate that it will pay for itself in about 28,000 miles!

Cheers for all the input people gave in the past. Feel free to message me with any questions based on my experience.

Thanks

Paul