Gearbox woes

[DarraghK94]

Hi everyone.

I have a 1971 earlybay and Im starting to restore it. Today I hooked the engine and gearbox together for a bench test and the starter wouldn’t engage with the flywheel.

It’s a CU gearbox which I think refers to a 1975-79.

Am I better off looking for a early box or is it possible to get a later starter and will there be any issues with fitting it to the gear linkage.

Thanks


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[sparkywig]

Have a look at this thread to explain gearbox fitment, and measure your flywheel to make sure it's not a 180mm one.

http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77107&p=606871&hilit=gearbox+codes#p606871

 

[Dci_Carter]

https://www.partsemporium.co.uk/GUIDE%20Bay%20window%20VW%20type%202%20gearbox%20codes%20and%20ratios.htm

Good link, cu fits 1600 mines a cu on a 1600, 71 Bay, when you days didn't engage, does the starter motor push the spindle forward and doesn't reach?

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[DarraghK94]

Thanks.

I’m pretty sure the clutch we installed was 200mm.

Will I be safe in getting a later start and installing as is into the bus?


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[DarraghK94]

https://www.partsemporium.co.uk/GUIDE%20Bay%20window%20VW%20type%202%20gearbox%20codes%20and%20ratios.htm

Good link, cu fits 1600 mines a cu on a 1600, 71 Bay, when you days didn't engage, does the starter motor push the spindle forward and doesn't reach?

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Yes starter doesn’t engage I bought starter second hand it was from a beetle I believe a t2 starter needs about 65mm to engage the flywheel.

I’m worried that the input shaft won’t line up either it might be too long?

Maybe I’m lucky and a new starter might solve the issue.

Hope you can help!


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[Dci_Carter]

https://www.partsemporium.co.uk/GUIDE%20Bay%20window%20VW%20type%202%20gearbox%20codes%20and%20ratios.htm

Good link, cu fits 1600 mines a cu on a 1600, 71 Bay, when you days didn't engage, does the starter motor push the spindle forward and doesn't reach?

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Yes starter doesn’t engage I bought starter second hand it was from a beetle I believe a t2 starter needs about 65mm to engage the flywheel.

I’m worried that the input shaft won’t line up either it might be too long?

Maybe I’m lucky and a new starter might solve the issue.

Hope you can help!


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Hmm don't see why the input shaft would be too long as it's designed for a 1600, I think the smallest Type 4 engine was a 1700. If the input shaft is too long it marry together. Have you tested the starter motor to see that the solenoid kicks in to push the shaft out when cranking?

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[sparkywig]

The only issue with the input shaft length is if you fit a 6 rib gearbox with a 3 rib bellhousing.
I'm running a 5 rib CM gearbox on a type 1 engine with no issues.

I think your issue is starter related rather than gearbox.

 

[Dci_Carter]

The beetle starter is the same for all models upto a 76-79 bus which had a longer shaft, you need to physically test it by hooking it up and watching the action, could be a dodgy or stuck solenoid

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[Dci_Carter]

https://youtu.be/5PIf1HkbqiI

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[DarraghK94]

The beetle starter is the same for all models upto a 76-79 bus which had a longer shaft, you need to physically test it by hooking it up and watching the action, could be a dodgy or stuck solenoid

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I have tested it it doesn’t engage with the flywheel I got the starter second hand from a guy who had a beetle!

Maybe a new starter with a longer throw will solve my issues!


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[Dci_Carter]

The beetle starter is the same for all models upto a 76-79 bus which had a longer shaft, you need to physically test it by hooking it up and watching the action, could be a dodgy or stuck solenoid

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I have tested it it doesn’t engage with the flywheel I got the starter second hand from a guy who had a beetle!

Maybe a new starter with a longer throw will solve my issues!


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It's not the length of 'throw' it's if if throws at all watch the video you'll see the 3 types, does the gearbox and engine fit together? Did you use an alignment tool to align the gearbox shaft into the engine?

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[DarraghK94]

Thanks,

Yes I believe the problem is the starter I have is incorrect. I need a starter from 76-79 with a longer shaft like in the video.

Hopefully that will solve my Problem.

I presume you have the later type starter too?


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[Dci_Carter]

No thats my point if you have a 1600 standard engine it uses a cu gearbox with a pre 76-79 starter, do you have any pictures? Did you use an alignment tool, does the gearbox case fit the engine with no gaps? Have you tested the starter motor?

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[DarraghK94]

The length from the ring gear of starter to end of shaft is 47mm.

This means the starter I have is for up to 75.

The CU gearbox I had to make longer studs and bolts as the originals would not get through the casings the gearbox.

I believe I need a starter with 60-65mm length shaft in starter which corresponds with later starters from 75.

Have you changed the bell housing as there is no way the early starter can work on the CU box unless the bell housing was changed?


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[Dci_Carter]

Hi no mines a standard bell housing, sounds like yours is a later one, I think they are interchangeable

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[Dci_Carter]

https://youtu.be/0jfJUFMwtFY

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[Moseley]

The bell housings are indeed interchangeable. I had to do a bit of research to work out what was fitted in our bus when I came to remove it, as although it all worked, it had been shoe-horned in with more than just a little persuasion, and was destroying the engine mounts. Although ours is a different gearbox (091), it has an 091 bell housing fitted, which sounds like what you have. As such, we are running a later starter to suit. The vid posted above explains the difference perfectly.

The later starter motor is a stronger design, however, by using the later bell housing, I believe you will introduce extra length between the gearbox and engine mounting points (I can’t remember how much the difference is). Some modification will need to be done to account for this, and that could also involve shortening the gear selector rod - just something to keep in mind.


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[Dci_Carter]

The bell housings are indeed interchangeable. I had to do a bit of research to work out what was fitted in our bus when I came to remove it, as although it all worked, it had been shoe-horned in with more than just a little persuasion, and was destroying the engine mounts. Although ours is a different gearbox (091), it has an 091 bell housing fitted, which sounds like what you have. As such, we are running a later starter to suit. The vid posted above explains the difference perfectly.

The later starter motor is a stronger design, however, by using the later bell housing, I believe you will introduce extra length between the gearbox and engine mounting points (I can’t remember how much the difference is). Some modification will need to be done to account for this, and that could also involve shortening the gear selector rod - just something to keep in mind.


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Spot on

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[Moseley]

Just to follow up on this if you wanted some figures for comparison on gearbox lengths:

091:

Bell housing face to starter mounting face = 83mm
Starter mounting face to gearbox side of bell housing joint = 42mm (so total bell housing depth = 125mm)
Ribbed section = 315mm
Small section after ribbed section = 76mm
Nose cone section to end of the nose where the shifter enters the case = 143mm

Total length = 659mm

002:

Bell housing face to starter mounting face = 71mm
Starter mounting face to gearbox side of bell housing joint = 50mm (so total bell housing depth = 121mm)
Ribbed section = 315mm
Small section after ribbed section = 68mm
Nose cone section to end of the nose where the shifter enters the case = 135mm

Total length = 639mm

 

[DarraghK94]

I’m after sourcing a 020 Bellhousing.

I just installed the starter and it worked and the input shaft doesn’t seem to be hitting the flywheel either.

Thanks everyone


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