Engine trouble, need my fears confirming

[froggy]

Deceided to strip and rebuild the engine today (following on from other threads about low compression) and all went well until it came to removing no.3 & 4's Head. The head was tight on the barrels and when removing, the barrels came away with the head showing what i think is a knackered B&P on No.3. Even worse though is the head is also damaged. 2 of the fins next to the spark plug are cracked and have now fell off.
So if the B&P is knackered then its a full set of B&P's (do i go for stack 1600 or 1641's) and i think its definately going to need a new head but is it going to be cheaper to buy a top end set, and if i go for a top end set shall i just go the whole hog and split the case and change all the bearings?

Damaged Piston?

Barrel

Damaged head

Engine case Numbers

Engine Number (think this was the original number that has been re-stamped onto the case!)

 

[VeeDubMan]

Better to split the case and make sure all is OK when you're at this stage. The bits that are missing could be floating around in there.

 

[Araon]

Dont think you've got much option but to split the case there....chances are somethings got past the rings..... be a shame to put a good top end on and neglect the bottom only to have to drop it again because the crank and cam shaft have eaten themselves...

 

[froggy]

Thats what i feared, never split a case before, mind you before today i'd never stripped one either so hey ho.
Do you think i'm looking at a complete top end kit and if so who is the best place to order from? Could i get away with 2nd hand items or is it just not worth the hassle?

 

[Araon]

good quality second hand items are ok og heads especially....

barrels and pistons low mileage are a good option you may be able to salvage that barrel not awfully clear on the pic the extent of the damage but is it worth the cost...

theres always good 1600 barrels and pistons on the go following peoples ventures into bigger motors....


this guys good http://www.johnmaherracing.co.uk/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[froggy]

The barrel is only slightly scratched, there no real deep ridges, might see if a mate has a honing tool and try and save it! The piston is dead so need a new piston. Would the cracked fins on the head render it dead or could i re-use the head? Just trying to weigh up the costs

 

[Araon]

You could re-use it but it will run a bit hotter on 3, any damage internally where the pistons broken up? These engines take a lot of abuse, give it a fighting chance and give your heads a real good clean and make sure its all as good as can be before re-fitting...

 

[froggy]

If you look at pictures 2 & 3 you can see where the damage ends, dont think anything has gone into the engine case but agree its best to try and split it just to be on the safe side! Will i need to remove the clutch and fly wheel to split the case or is it possible with it all in place (i dont think i've got a large enough socket for the gland nut anyway)
I drained all the oil out of the engine before i started and nothing dropped out the bottom with the oil but dont want to chance re-building it to find that the crank explodes on me, especially as the wife has decided we're going to goto Italy in the van next year (lake maggiore) so want to do it right this time!

 

[noddy]

What are your valves like any side to side play between valve and guide, any burning on edges or exhaust valves.
If valve guides are not to bad you could get away with dropping in an new set and lapping them in. I think the head with the bust fins should be binned unless you have the fins and can get the tig welded back on, probably best to get a second hand head.

Not sure if I'm right in saying this but aren't pistons balanced sets? If you only replace one you will need to match it in weight to the others. Full sets of 1600 barrels, pistons and rings can be picked up new for about 90 quid.

Have a look at whats in the sump there usually a caked on layer that's got any metal deposits in it, if there any gold looking stuff you valve guides are wearing.

I agree with the earlier posting probably best to split the case just to check the crank, if you need a regrind and polish its about £30 per journal, and you need to take the fly wheel off before you split the case there no way to hold the crank one it out, to undo the gland nut.

Do you have the tools i.e. torque wrenches because you will need two, one to do the gland nut to hold the fly wheel on, and another to do the case bolts and heads up. One wrench wont have a big enough torque range to cover both.

I think the last rebuild I did cost me between £400 and £500 with recon heads, new barrels, crank polished, new shells, and all the other bits and bobs gaskets, sealing compound, plastigauge, etc.

To do it properly isn't that cheep.

 

[froggy]

Yeah i've got a couple of torque wrenches, just try to price up all the parts. Does anyone know if Kingfisher Kustoms do a top end rebuild kit? i know they do the bearing because i enquired last time i was over there (there the most local place to me about 25 miles) but looking at there web site (which is quite poor compared to others) they dont state anything so will probably ring up.
What else should i do whilst the case is split?

 

[noddy]

Hi froggy

It would be worth getting the bearing seat check to see if the are oval, also the thrust surfaces for wear, and check for pulled case studs, cam bearing seats are usual ok but worth fitting new cam bearing as you are already in there.

I would take the case to some one who deals with vw engines on a regular basis they will be able to tell you what needs doing, some like http://www.jhengines.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , he used to be in wolves but looks like he's moved.

Get your case and crank checked first, before you buy any of the other stuff, if your case is shot your looking at £300 min for a new one unless you can get a good second hand one, JH will do all your recon work for you on the case crank heads etc, last time I used him to recon heads he was not to bad on prices.

Got loads of tools if you need a loan of any.

Ian

 

[froggy]

Took the plunge and with the help of a mate i've split the case only to find that the cam bearings are starting to disintergrate, the mains have signs of wear and although the big ends look ok i'm gonna change the lot! After what i already need to buy another £35 on bearings isn't the end of the world. :lol:
Unfortunately we managed to break the oil pump housing so thats also added to the list of parts
At the moment the list consists of:-
B&P set
1 x Head (hopefully Volksmagic has 1 just awaiting confirmation)
Oil Pump
Main Bearings
Big end bearing
Cam Bearings
Gasket set (although i have just bought an Elring set from GSF)
Fly wheel oil seal

Can anyone think of anything else i might need?

 

[Loxy]

Before buying any bearing I would get all the bearing saddles checked.

 

[Bay-low71]

Why just 1 head ?>?? Not that much more for a set is it??? Have you changed the heads before for unleaded ones? if not may be an idea to buy a set, you can forget about it then.

But, Loxy is right strip the crank and size up using appropriate micrometer where the bearings are located on the shaft points. Has it been ground if so how much, remember new b&p's slightly higher compression higher stresses on the crank, be sure to have it checked out.

Dizzy drive gear and shaft, how do they look?? I know mine drive gear on the end of the crank was damaged.

Ben

 

[noddy]

Engine assembly paste and a good gasket compound for the case half's like:

http://www.frost.co.uk/item_Detail.asp?productID=9215&frostProductName=High+Temperature+Gasket+Sealer+(85gm+tube" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false&catID=56&subCatID=&FrostCat=Gaskets&Sealers&FrostSubcat=

Thread lock

 

[froggy]

Got some gasgacinch (?) in the end, just need to remember where all the parts go now!

 

[ProfessorWheeto]

Use the gasket sealant sparingly!
Otherwise it squidges out and gunks up your oil pump and everyone at work takes the piss and you'll never hear the end of it.
Voice of experience :lol: