vintage speed or side exit exhaust?

[sharman]

undecided on which exhaust for my 1776. Quite like the idea of a 4-1 merged side exit exhaust(csp type), but the VS looks neat and is cheaper, although the flex heat exchanger pipes look a little squashed for it to fit. Also consider my bus is lowered, not slammed. Has to be stainless, what's your thoughts guys?

 

[Zcat7]

I have a VS on my 1776. Great fit (no problems with heat exchanger tubes), neat and tucked away, even though I have the side exit version not centre exit as I have a tow bar. Downside is that it spews soot onto the bumper (same with my friend's bus) and I've read of someone having their one adapted to prevent this (longer tube welded in).

Can't comment on the CSP type but I had an EMPI 4-1 with "quiet pack" previously and the VS is miles ahead in quality and engine note and I think better in performance also.

 

[K@rlos]

A 4 into 1 will gibe better performance as Vintage speeds are restrictive as hell!

 

[vassy69SC]

I have 2 lowlights: one with a VS which I don't agree as being restrictive as the engine has the same performance that it had with a sidewinder style exhaust previously (checked performance by running 2/10 second quicker on the quarter mile: 17.0). The VS is excellent.
The other lowie has the CSP python which is a brilliant exhaust. Noisier than the VS and I have no doubt would improve performance marginally over the VS but depends on your engine. VS doesn't require you to remove your muffler every time you adjust tappets.

 

[Guest]

you need to be making 150bhp+ before you start to notice the restriction. I have ran both A1 sidewinder and VS on my beetle and noticed no difference in power. The VS is much neater and tidier to work with. Personal preference i prefer the note from the VS as well.

 

[vintagedan]

I have these in stock if needed.
Vintagespeeduk.
Cheers
Dan.

 

[sharman]

I have these in stock if needed.
Vintagespeeduk.
Cheers
Dan.

Hi Dan,

PM me a price to tempt me

 

[sparkywig]

you need to be making 150bhp+ before you start to notice the restriction. I have ran both A1 sidewinder and VS on my beetle and noticed no difference in power. The VS is much neater and tidier to work with. Personal preference i prefer the note from the VS as well.

I'll disagree with you on this one.
Rolling road runs on my bus with a VS "superflow" and then a Turbo Thomas system saw a 18bhp and 30lb/ft torque increase to 115bhp and 150lb/ft.

 

[atafonso]

The VS is very similar to a stock exhaust, who has a stock exhaust in their performance engine?
I agree it has a nice sound and good build quality. If i had a stock engine, i would def go with the VS. But on anything with more power than stock, i would choose something else.
Abel

 

[1961bluebug]

I will say something that can hurt your wallet- BAS Ahnendorp exhaust.

 

[Zcat7]

I must say that I read these responses and this type of thread with real interest. I have never understood performance tuning enough to pass valid comment (my original comment was more about function, aesthetics and my impression of "before and after" performance) but would love to know more.

I grew up tinkering with various cars/engines such as BMC A and B series, various Ford (Kent crossflow and Essex V6 mainly) and Triumph straight 6s. I didn't get to VW aircooled until a few years ago. I have rebuilt all of the above engines at some point but any tuning was usually based upon the principle of flowing air through the combustion cycle - hence a raft of Peco/Janspeed/custom exhausts, high lift cams, K&N air filters and re-jetting the carbs "to suit" that sort of thing. I was always of the understanding however that there are trade-offs and opportunities to tune for either torque, a good average across a wide power band, peaky high power in a narrow rev band (never understood the appeal of the Honda S2000 with all it's bang being delivered between 7 and 9000 revs but then I never drove one...) and anywhere in-between. I then got to hear about the "some backpressure is good" argument and at that point I turned to suspension tuning!
I guess what I'm saying/asking is, what is the best question to ask when talking about what exhaust to use? Bearing in mind the giddying array of aircooled VW engine configurations available now shouldn't we be stating what type of performance we are aiming for?
My understanding of the Vintagespeed (and I recall it being in the literature) is that it does flow a lot more than a standard exhaust (one reason why it's louder) but does have it's performance/design limits compared to merged and balanced headers.

A rolling road, as Sparkywig cites, is king if you want to know what you will achieve but is there a reliable formula that the "bolt on" tuner can refer to? I think it would be good to have a sticky thread with people's configurations (bore, stroke, cam, head/valves, carb/s, exhaust etc) and RR results as a base reference point so that you know where to aim and that way you can get the right blend of practicality, driveability and performance without spending your money several times on the wrong parts.

I'm want to learn more so would love to hear sound, qualified and evidenced views on how to tune our engines. Bring it on!

 

[Moseley]

Agree with the above Zcat, there's more to it than just discounting an exhaust due to being 'restrictive.' Power figures are often quoted from a RR which may show an increase after a particular modification is fitted. But actually, this is just the peak power, and it may be that although a higher figure is achieved, the rest of the rev range could be suffering and in fact would make the engine perform slower from 0-60 for example. On a naturally aspirated engine, back pressure is required, and the tuning of this will definitely change the characteristics and power band of an engine. As with everything, different people will have different needs from their vehicles driveability; an exhaust might work for some but not others.


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[*Sam*]

For those who want extra flow and equal length header and still Vintage speed, don't forget they offer a 42mm equal length header version. You can find it on the VS web site.

For me a merged header and turbo muffler were out of the question for the following reason.
1. I don't like the look of them
2. I have 2 very your children who like to look with their fingers, I would like them not to burn them off.
3. From the occasions I have been in a vehicle with one they are to loud for my personal circumstances.

I couldn't afford a turbo Thomas or the BAS motor sport and haven't been in a bus with one fitted.

As my bus is used as a family holiday vehicle I have to take more than just power gains into consideration.



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[sparkywig]

For those who want extra flow and equal length header and still Vintage speed, don't forget they offer a 42mm equal length header version. You can find it on the VS web site.

For me a merged header and turbo muffler were out of the question for the following reason.
1. I don't like the look of them
2. I have 2 very your children who like to look with their fingers, I would like them not to burn them off.
3. From the occasions I have been in a vehicle with one they are to loud for my personal circumstances.

I couldn't afford a turbo Thomas or the BAS motor sport and haven't been in a bus with one fitted.

As my bus is used as a family holiday vehicle I have to take more than just power gains into consideration.



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It wasn't just power gains I was after as my engine was built for low and mid range torque, more for long distance journeys and towing.
The TT system raised the torque output throughout out the rev range, flattened the torque curve and dropped max torque from 4047rpm to 2980rpm.
I've got 90% of torque available from 1800rpm as well, and the bus drives really well.

Don't get me wrong, with the VS fitted the bus drove really well as well, but just didn't feel "right".
The VS also performed brilliantly on the singleport with ICTs and a 123 dizzy previously fitted to the bus.

 

[*Sam*]

Great info Sparkywig, sounds like a good match for your engine spec.
If the VS feels the same on my engine and the noise of the TT is ok maybe i will be able to pick up a second hand one and try it.




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[sharman]

Wow, what a debate I've started. Like the side exit exhausts for sure and would be my preference, but reckon the VS may not hang as low and is approx half the price of CSP Python system. Although I prefer German quality. Not got a race engine, just mildly modded 1776 with twin 34 ice Webers.

 

[Zcat7]

Sparkywig - can you share how you set about your engine spec to achieve the low/mid range torque for towing etc that you desired?
From what I can glean, you have a stroker engine and it looks like you have tried various configurations (carbs, heads and exhaust?) to get the desired results but did you have a formula to start from (I.e. bore, stroke, cam etc)?
Or was there a degree of trial and error as you upgraded? Would you do anything different next time based upon the results you have now?

 

[sparkywig]

Sparkywig - can you share how you set about your engine spec to achieve the low/mid range torque for towing etc that you desired?
From what I can glean, you have a stroker engine and it looks like you have tried various configurations (carbs, heads and exhaust?) to get the desired results but did you have a formula to start from (I.e. bore, stroke, cam etc)?
Or was there a degree of trial and error as you upgraded? Would you do anything different next time based upon the results you have now?

I've pm'd you, this thread is about exhausts and we're going off topic.

 

[Zcat7]

Good stuff. Thanks Sparkywig.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Sharman!

 

[sharman]

Good stuff. Thanks Sparkywig.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Sharman!

No problem pal, we're here to help each other.