1600 to 1641?

[Supertramp]

Is it worth doing? I'll be stripping my engine to replace heads/valves so I was wondering while I'm doing it, is it worth going to 1641? What's involved if so?
Thanks!

 

[Supertramp]

or 1776? :shadey:

 

[SiDev]

All depends on budget and what you use it for. Going 1641 is a simple bolt on upgrade and is cheap and cheerful, 1776 and bigger needs machining and is more expensive. Personally I went 1641 with a mild cam, twin Dells and a decent 4 into 1 exhaust and got 76bhp on the rollers which I'm happy with for now. I expect in a few years I will drop this out and have something bigger built for fun. Personally, if I was machining I would go bigger than 1776, it won't cost any more: better to have more power than you need, you don't have to use it. Whatever you decide to do, remember irrespective of power, it will scream its nuts off on a standard gearbox.

 

[dazza1975]

To go 1641 all you need is new barrels and pistons - I did it and happy with the outcome. Not much more top speed difference but gets their quicker!

To go down the route of 1776 - Need engine strip and machine work then you can add better cam, pumps, external oil cooler and so on and so on!!

Your choice - You decide!!

8) 8) 8) 1776 8) 8) 8)

 

[Supertramp]

Decisions decisions! So what would be the extra cost going for 1776? The machining?
Do I need a new cam to go for 1641, I've heard about these engle 100 cams, they any good?

I've got the carbs already (Dellorto 36 DRLA) and the VS exhaust. Would I need a gearbox upgrade for 1641?


Here's me thinking when I upgraded to twin carbs that would be the end of it...

 

[SiDev]

Standard cam is fine and doesn't need replacing, upgraded cam will give more lift and duration, so more power and torque. It really does come down to what you want and how much money you have, you will see a power difference in the modifications you have made, and arguably the best money you will spend will be having the whole thing set up on a rolling road and running properly.

 

[rallye dale]

It's never ending paddy, mine is 1641 b&p, Engle 100 cam , ratio rockers, bigger oil pump, also had the heads ported and polished and the dells, goes quite well but I've nothing to compare it against !

Don't think 1776 is worth it

If going bigger I would look in the 1900's but into serious money then, and then a gearbox

 

[Supertramp]

Cheers Si.
And yep Dale, I've fallen through the rabbit hole.
Basically because we're going around Europe for six months I want something that can tackle long cruises as well as mountainous climbs with decent mpg. Also something that isn't too difficult to work on in case things go wrong.
Not got a huge budget but most of my money goes into saving for travels and the bus. 1641 seems the best option...

 

[Stevec]

I've gone down a different route, more American I think as I posted it on here recently and no one came back saying they've done it. I'm fitting 88mm machine in pistons , not slip in's. The machine in are thick walled so no worries about warping ( I've been told the 88mm don't unless you thrash it). Anyway there is machining required but only on the heads to 92/90.5mm. It all works off the 69mm cam to so no splitting off the case required. It should bring it up to 1679cc.
I'm doing it in Nov so I'll take pictures and put a thread up, fingers crossed she's goes sweet as I have Europe planned next year too.

Steve

 

[Trikky2]

I've gone down a different route, more American I think as I posted it on here recently and no one came back saying they've done it. I'm fitting 88mm machine in pistons , not slip in's. The machine in are thick walled so no worries about warping ( I've been told the 88mm don't unless you thrash it). Anyway there is machining required but only on the heads to 92/90.5mm. It all works off the 69mm cam to so no splitting off the case required. It should bring it up to 1679cc.
I'm doing it in Nov so I'll take pictures and put a thread up, fingers crossed she's goes sweet as I have Europe planned next year too.

Steve

Machining the case will require the engine to be dismantled, true.

(Even if you could machine it assembled it would still require disassembly to clean it out).

Once the engine is out and the heads are removed its really not much more work to split the case - your nearly there anyway.

The reason I don't like the machine in ones you describe is because the bottom of the barrels are made much thinner than stock. This is not a problem regarding warping because its only the part in the block - but - all the compressing forces pushing the barrel down onto a soft magnesium alloy case are now concentrated into a much narrower slice of metal.

This concentrates the forces like on the blade of a knife or a point on a nail. Eg. If you halve the thickness of the rim you double the force being applied at its contact point.

If you want more capacity without machining then you can fit a longer stroke crank with some suitable stroker pistons and connecting rods.

 

[Alex VW Heritage]

https://www.vwheritage.com/shop/043198002/top-end-rebuild-kit-1641cc/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[andy11]

Wouldn't bother with a 1641 at all, still no torque, if you want some real performance go for at least a 1955, lots of torque to get up those hills and extra speed aswell and won't cost you much more than a 1776 !

 

[Supertramp]

Wouldn't bother with a 1641 at all, still no torque, if you want some real performance go for at least a 1955, lots of torque to get up those hills and extra speed aswell and won't cost you much more than a 1776 !

Why stop at 1955? I can see where this is going...

I was going to be happy with my 1600 and twin carbs but as the heads potentially need replacing anyway, it got me onto thinking about upgrades to power. I really don't want a huge engine, just something reliable that keeps speed.

In terms of cost, 1641 is a bolt on kit (correct?) like Alex posted at around £480-£500

1776 would involve a new cam and machining so we're talking what £?

Don't want to go higher than that as I want to start diverting my funds away from the engine and onto interior goodies.

 

[Marriedblonde]

I started off going for a 1914cc but ended up going for a 2187cc unit instead. Bigger the better I reckon.

I'd suggest seeing if you can have a drive in a bus with the size of engines you are looking it. Obviously get one with a similar set up. I don't think a 1641cc will make much difference, except that your old engine may be tired and there fore going back to the power it left the factory will. If you know what I mean.

I drove a mates 2007cc before I decided and the difference in performance is amazing, being able to keep up with traffic on hills etc makes the bus so much nicer to drive.

 

[dubdubz]

honestly you should tackle this from the other direction

budget and partly time

how much do you have of either - seriously set a budget and unless you are in a position to 'find more' if you just increase to 1955cc for example

simple way [ and I mean this sincerely] is do your own pricing research.

Ring TES or someone who does machining and ask for the cost to machine heads and case - in fact get a menu of machining
Factor in next the cost of the goodies from say VWheritage and then decide if you can do it yourself.

It is possible to do yourself, and that is where the knowledge on here is invaluable but you have to factor in if when you are measuring and measuring again, if something is out of tolerance, it may have to go back to machine shop to sort.
The way I did mine was to strip, measure and send off case. This isn't a next day thing of course - which is where the time question came from.

I would as a final point make sure the engine is standard width - when you get into 'stroker' tinware doesn't fit etc and you need shims for deck height and the like. I built a mini stoker out of curiosity [76mm crank and std size top end= 1745], because a s Trikky says the case needs to be checked, and whilst you're in there a new crank is only the cost of a new crank - you should be doing new bearings etc anyway. The hardest part was setting deck height and altering the tinware for me.
If I had to do it again - I'd go 1776 - though using a 69mm CW balanced crank instead of stock. I had also bought the dells and a decent exhaust, anything above 1955 is really stretching the 36's I'm reliably told [ not sure if that is true but seems reasonable ?]

Then there's the additional power and making sure it stops - that has to be factored - a bus that can be more modern in its velocity overall - probably needs either a rigid maintenance of the drums [drums are pretty good in general] or swapping to disks and decent pads...

 

[Supertramp]

I started off going for a 1914cc but ended up going for a 2187cc unit instead. Bigger the better I reckon.

I'd suggest seeing if you can have a drive in a bus with the size of engines you are looking it. Obviously get one with a similar set up. I don't think a 1641cc will make much difference, except that your old engine may be tired and there fore going back to the power it left the factory will. If you know what I mean.

I drove a mates 2007cc before I decided and the difference in performance is amazing, being able to keep up with traffic on hills etc makes the bus so much nicer to drive.

honestly you should tackle this from the other direction

budget and partly time

how much do you have of either - seriously set a budget and unless you are in a position to 'find more' if you just increase to 1955cc for example

simple way [ and I mean this sincerely] is do your own pricing research.

Ring TES or someone who does machining and ask for the cost to machine heads and case - in fact get a menu of machining
Factor in next the cost of the goodies from say VWheritage and then decide if you can do it yourself.

It is possible to do yourself, and that is where the knowledge on here is invaluable but you have to factor in if when you are measuring and measuring again, if something is out of tolerance, it may have to go back to machine shop to sort.
The way I did mine was to strip, measure and send off case. This isn't a next day thing of course - which is where the time question came from.

I would as a final point make sure the engine is standard width - when you get into 'stroker' tinware doesn't fit etc and you need shims for deck height and the like. I built a mini stoker out of curiosity [76mm crank and std size top end= 1745], because a s Trikky says the case needs to be checked, and whilst you're in there a new crank is only the cost of a new crank - you should be doing new bearings etc anyway. The hardest part was setting deck height and altering the tinware for me.
If I had to do it again - I'd go 1776 - though using a 69mm CW balanced crank instead of stock. I had also bought the dells and a decent exhaust, anything above 1955 is really stretching the 36's I'm reliably told [ not sure if that is true but seems reasonable ?]

Then there's the additional power and making sure it stops - that has to be factored - a bus that can be more modern in its velocity overall - probably needs either a rigid maintenance of the drums [drums are pretty good in general] or swapping to disks and decent pads...

Thank you both, good reads. I'll have to do some more research. I started off thinking while the engine is being stripped is it worth a bolt on upgrade to 1641 but this then leads whether I should upgrade even higher. To be honest I don't have a huge amount of time either, we're leaving in March and the winter period is quite busy for us. Really want the bus running as soon as too. So much to think about with these things, it's never simple. Got 15 other decisions related to the interior to make, let alone colour choices...COLOUR CHOICES!! :lol:

 

[Trikky2]

Thank you both, good reads. I'll have to do some more research. I started off thinking while the engine is being stripped is it worth a bolt on upgrade to 1641 but this then leads whether I should upgrade even higher. To be honest I don't have a huge amount of time either, we're leaving in March and the winter period is quite busy for us. Really want the bus running as soon as too. So much to think about with these things, it's never simple. Got 15 other decisions related to the interior to make, let alone colour choices...COLOUR CHOICES!! :lol:

Bottom line. If you have to replace your pistons and barrels because a compression test has revealed that they are worn out, then the the extra cost to go 1641 is worth it because, although the performance difference isn't much, the price difference is equally small.

If on the other hand your pistons and barrels are in good shape then its best just to leave it alone, until such time as your budget will stretch to something more powerful IMHO.

 

[andy11]

Wouldn't bother with a 1641 at all, still no torque, if you want some real performance go for at least a 1955, lots of torque to get up those hills and extra speed aswell and won't cost you much more than a 1776 !

Why stop at 1955? I can see where this is going...

I was going to be happy with my 1600 and twin carbs but as the heads potentially need replacing anyway, it got me onto thinking about upgrades to power. I really don't want a huge engine, just something reliable that keeps speed.

In terms of cost, 1641 is a bolt on kit (correct?) like Alex posted at around £480-£500

1776 would involve a new cam and machining so we're talking what £?

Don't want to go higher than that as I want to start diverting my funds away from the engine and onto interior goodies.

I'd stop at 1955 because it's a good compromise between economy and power/torque, theres just no point in spending £500 on a 1641 when you get no benefit. I've run a 1600,1641 and 1776 and was very little between all of them. It wasn't till I fitted a 1955 that it became a worthwhile upgrade, it would keep up with modern traffic and go up hills and I can't explain how good that feels !! It gobbled a bit more juice but it was well worth it, I think it's the best engine for a bay, end of story.

 

[Marriedblonde]

Do people worry too much about economy on these buses? The difference between 1600 to the bigger engines isn;t going to be huge is it?

I can't remember how much I used to get out of my 1600 in mine, I think it might have been mid 20's , the 1914 I ran briefly was about the same.

J.

 

[Alex VW Heritage]

I get better mileage out of my 2276cc on 48 IDF's than I did out of my 1776cc on 44 IDF's

At the same cruising speed the engine is doing less work so using less fuel.

This is only on a long run, in traffic or round town it's not so great but I have size 11's and like using them!

On a long run the 2276cc gets about 23MPG so about the same as a stock lump 8)