Heating.

[Pete B]

Ok, the subject has been debated so much over the years, and I think it is now accepted that the system works fine so long as its in good condition and well maintained.
Bearing in mind that genuine VAG heat exchangers are no longer available, do any of the pattern ones come any where near the quality and performance?
Any recomendations would be gratefully recieved.
On a conected note, what about 'performance' exhausts that allow the connection from fan housing to heat exchanger? I have a Monza system which I quite like, but that means no heating other than a little convection, not good enough!

 

[chrisby]

I read on the JK forum ( I know ) that better quality H/exchangers are available for Bugs and its possible to adapt them to fit,there used to be a sticky on this.

 

[cyberdyne systems]

The stock header has some extra parts that wrap around the exhaust pipes and feed air from the fan shroud to the exchanger, with a 'performance' header you connect your pipe dirrectly from the shroud to heat exchanger - this must reduce some of the heating of the air.

I like the fact that on my bus, both exchangers are feeding the central pipe unlike my beetle which sends it down each heater channel, taking longer for it to properly warm up.

I would think there are plently of original exchangers in various states, which can be repaired. I've found that the J tube's tend to last but you can have rot in the outer skin, this can be easily patched up.

Gareth

 

[aogrady]

I read on the JK forum ( I know ) that better quality H/exchangers are available for Bugs and its possible to adapt them to fit,there used to be a sticky on this.

I would love to know this info! My bus had a bug engine with h/e and the heat is very good indeed - though i have to wire them on all the time, as the bus cables are too short, and the flaps are mounted different on the bug v bus.

I would love a mod to get mine working well from inside the cab, it was warm inside during the few days we had in summer, bit too warm, but at least i have heat anyway!!

Is there a sticky? Or a mod about this?

Alistair

 

[chrisby]

There was a sticky on the old JK forum,I dont know if you can still access it because its all changed now.Go on there and ask.I dont seem able to go on there as I once critised JK :roll: :lol:

 

[aogrady]

There was a sticky on the old JK forum,I dont know if you can still access it because its all changed now.Go on there and ask.I dont seem able to go on there as I once critised JK :roll: :lol:

I will have a look. Thanks.

Alistair

 

[Pete B]

That answers one other question, are bug and bus heat exchangers different? Most ads list 'T1/T2' in the same section. As I thought, the flaps work differently so no, they are not the same.
Still, back to the original question, do any pattern heat exchangers work as well as genuine parts? If so, then which and from whom? JK are doing a deal on a pair with fitting kit etc for about £125, but if they don't chuck the heat out and rot in two years, then thats not a good deal!
Oh, and what the **** is a 'sticky'?

 

[flynster]

pete a sticky is a thread which remains at the top of the page in whatever section that may be :wink:

 

[Pete B]

with a 'performance' header you connect your pipe dirrectly from the shroud to heat exchanger - this must reduce some of the heating of the air.

I like the fact that on my bus, both exchangers are feeding the central pipe unlike my beetle which sends it down each heater channel, taking longer for it to properly warm up

Gareth

Sorry mate, but you can't pipe from the shroud to the h/ex, the exhaust is in the way! That's why the stock one has the section it does to collect heat from the header and join shroud to h/ex! Also, it may reduce the temp. a little, but it is the fan blowing that pushes the hot air into the vehicle, without that, it is down to convection.
And I don't understand how hot air down one tube in a large vehicle is more efficient than the same amount of hot air in two tubes in a smaller vehicle? Surely the further it travels, the longer it takes and the cooler it becomes?
Don't mean to be argumentative, maybe I'm missing something!

 

[Pete B]

Cheers Steve!

 

[Guest]

i believe its also possible to get big bore exchangers for larger engines to help with the flow?

 

[Tofufi]

Sorry mate, but you can't pipe from the shroud to the h/ex, the exhaust is in the way! That's why the stock one has the section it does to collect heat from the header and join shroud to h/ex! Also, it may reduce the temp. a little, but it is the fan blowing that pushes the hot air into the vehicle, without that, it is down to convection.

Yes you can - I used aluminium piping (similar to the cardboard stuff, but alu so it doesn't burn or melt) on my bus and bug. It needs to be bent round the exhaust pipes for the rearmost cylinders.

You can't see it clearly, but in this pic my bug was running a Kadron exhaust.

The foil tubes were just bent round the exhaust manifold for the cylinders nearest the camera, and then joined onto the end of the heat exchanger.

Regarding the heat exchangers, the article on the JK forum advocated buying ORIGINAL VW beetle heat exchangers (I.E. secondhand), as they are simply easier to get hold of than van ones are. Then adapting them to work with the van controls by extending the levers.

I have never yet seen a repro heat exchanger which puts out anywhere near as much heat as the originals do. Apparently the big bore ones don't give much heat at all, but I have no personal experience of them.

This shows the difference between repro and original heat exchangers:

- note the exhaust profile inside the heat exchanger - which also causes a huge difference in surface area.

 

[Pete B]

Thank you very much for that informative reply.
I stand corrected, appologies if my previous 'know all' response offended anyone!
Will have to give it a go with the ally hose, I really didn't think there would be space for it to fit. If it's been done, then it fits! That means I can keep my Monza AND have heat, fantastic!
Regarding heat exchangers, those diagrams really do show why pattern parts have such a poor reputation, gotta be no more than 30% of the efficiency of a genuine VAG part. Believe I have genuine bug h/exchangers fitted, so a bit of messing around to get the flaps working will be worthwhile.
Thanks again, but would still like to hear from anyone who has bought pattern heat exchangers and found them to be acceptable!

 

[Tofufi]

Thank you very much for that informative reply.
I stand corrected, appologies if my previous 'know all' response offended anyone!
Will have to give it a go with the ally hose, I really didn't think there would be space for it to fit. If it's been done, then it fits! That means I can keep my Monza AND have heat, fantastic!
Regarding heat exchangers, those diagrams really do show why pattern parts have such a poor reputation, gotta be no more than 30% of the efficiency of a genuine VAG part. Believe I have genuine bug h/exchangers fitted, so a bit of messing around to get the flaps working will be worthwhile.
Thanks again, but would still like to hear from anyone who has bought pattern heat exchangers and found them to be acceptable!

Didn't offend me fella - it does look a bit tight, and takes a bit of persuasion and some large-ish jubilee clips to hold it all in place - just about possible though.

The repro heat exchangers really are rubbish, but I'd love to hear if anyone starts making decent ones

There was a diagram of how to change the heat exchanger levers on JK, I'll have a look for them

 

[Tofufi]

Couldn't find it, so I asked on JK here:

http://www.justkampers.com/forum/thread/view/heat_exchanger_levers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Might get some replies...

 

[Pete B]

Top reply mate! Thanks for that, most enlightening.
Kind of backs up what we knew twenty odd years ago when I was messing around with these things (had a break, wedding, divorce etc,) that pattern heat exchangers are rubbish.

The question now has to be, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS (20 PLUS) WHY OH WHY, STILL IS NO ONE MAKING A GOOD REPLACEMENT PART???????
Cost has to be an issue of course, but surely there is enough of a market (how many busses imported?) to manufacture a reasonable replacement.
Over to you guys at JK, C&C, Heritage etc.....

 

[the councillor]

I have a Monza system which i quite like

just like the old 'irresistible force and immovable object' paradox...

WHY OH WHY, STILL IS NO ONE MAKING A GOOD REPLACEMENT PART???????

these two statements cannot co-exist in the same universe :wink:

 

[Clem]

The question now has to be, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS (20 PLUS) WHY OH WHY, STILL IS NO ONE MAKING A GOOD REPLACEMENT PART???????
Cost has to be an issue of course, but surely there is enough of a market (how many busses imported?) to manufacture a reasonable replacement.
Over to you guys at JK, C&C, Heritage etc.....

JK has reflected on this i the past, and the fact remains that the amount of bus owners that would buy such an item are very small fry compared to the tooling, design and manufacture required .... the pattern parts are designed for markets where the heating system are a hang over from the original design and not really needed, a complex j-tube, if you will. I only use my van during the temperate months and find the pattern items adequate if everything else is in place ..... the fact remains that a cheap second hand water cooled car is cheaper than og heat exchangers and/or a propex :lol:

 

[Nic B-C]

early bay owners could supplement their sytem by adding a later bay blower or even an inline fan somewhere along the line.

Big bore ones are oncredibly light and I think have even less finage than repro ones.

Ive just fitted a supplementary heater in a friends bus, its a 300w ceramic heater made for caravans and is wired directly to battery as it has its own fuse and is switched it also doubles as a fan in the three days of summer we get.

 

[Guest]

if you were clever you could open a repro exchanger and replace/repair the inner with the genuine exchanger inner . My original exchangers are in great shape but i was wondering where they tend to fail first? the inner or the skin?