Lowering woes

[sharman]

Well, I'm about at my wits end and on verge of meltdown I set off to lower my bus and ended up clenching my buttocks every time a see a bump or pot hole in the road. Originally, She sat on 5.5x15 alloys with 185/65/15 tyres. She was approx 3.5" higher at the front also.

So, after seeing other stances, I fitted dropped spindles/coilovers and adjusters on my beam(thats another story!). The adjusters were set at about std height. This made the front tyres really close to the arch, so I fitted 175/55 15 tyres for more clearance.

This dropped the front even lower, making it nose dive at the front by approx 3.5" and scrape every hump

I had to go on holiday like this, 350 miles of pure un-nerving.

Once back of hol, I wanted to fit adjustable springplates to even things up as I did'nt want to lower rear on skinny tyres. Unfortunately, everyone seemed to be out of stock, so I opted for Horse shoe plates. What could possibly go wrong

Well it did, big time. Horseshoes on and height of the camper was perfect and virtually level, except one tyre had clearance, the other side was rubbing the arch. We had to deflate both tyres and wrestle em in.
Apparently, the offset of my Midland wheel BRM's is shite and I make it ET20. I was advised to fit std steel wheels if poss because they give more arch clearance.
Great, I fit 14" std wheels with 185/14 wheels and yes, the wheel fits and gives more clearance. Unfortunately, the tyre bead had to be broken to allow it to fit and went with a pop when inflated, so that should be fun to get off :roll:
Anyway, she was good to go to Stanford hall camping, except that when loaded with gear, there was knocking/banging at the rear everytime we went over a bump and the front was still scraping. Looking from the rear, it looks level, but has more camber on one side than the other.

Needless to say, I'm not happy and the wife hates it :msn4:

Wish I'd left her alone, but don't know what to do to fix it as I the pockets are virtually empty. I aint got std spindles cos they were p/x'ed, I can't afford new alloys to compensate for offset. I think my first port of call is to remove the horseshoe plates, once I've sawn the damn tyres off to remove the wheels :mrgreen: Oh the joys

 

[ZedBed]

If you were near me, I'd come and look. And by the sounds of it point out nicely what a fool you've been and why.

Your bus looks lower than just horseshoes to me, so the banging is driveshafts or diaganol arm hitting the chassis.
What did you do with/to the rear rubber bumpstops?

This lowering thing must be thought about, it's not for someone who just bought a socket set. I've seen some alarming stuff recently, some done by so-called experts. If you're doing this and want to do it safely there is a lot to consider. It is NOT a weekend bolt on accessory as the OP has found to his cost.

70mph with the chassis riding on the shock bolts of your narrow beam for front suspension anyone?

Rant over.

 

[Clem]

It's probably too low at the back without notching, so raise it up a bit till it stops. Lose the BRMs all round as the offset up front will cause rubbing which can end up killing tyres and bending arches. You'll probably want/need a narrow beam next tbh :lol:

It's a long path once you start ....

 

[Merlydog]

Ah I feel for you matey I do.. There must be someone up chesterfield way that can give you a hand, if even just to put you bk where you were.. :?

 

[ZedBed]

OK - The constructive version.

FRONT: Why don't you lift it up a bit on the adjusters?
Do you still have bump-stops or even the arms they attach to? With a bit of cunning and the right tools it's possible to adapt the pump stops so they catch the wheel just before it rubs. Your head may hit the roof, but it probably does anyway as we've both reduced our suspension travel from about 3 massive British feet to a few puny European centimeteres.
Fashion has it's price...

REAR: Horseshoes. I was also seduced, but by the time the supplier supplied them :roll: I'd worked out I'd never in a million years get my prefered standard size wheels/tyres on and off even with a crowbar, so I lowered it first 1 then 2 notches. This is where you find out why some people notch and others manufacture notched springplates. I did something else.

Then with the bumpstops pulled off, I looked at what might hit what first. I jacked up one front corner to put a lot of weight on one rear wheel and LOOKED. The drive shaft will hit the chassis (if was resting on it so it was pretty obvious). So I looked to see what gap there was left for the bump stop. Not much. I added some to allow for the rubber compressing and hack-sawed off all but about half of one bulge and refitted them. Nothng hits anything, bangs or clanks. This in my opinion is as far as you can go without chopping chunks out of bits of your bus. With std tyres any lower and you be tubbing the rear arches and chassis notching. From you picture and the story you posted IMO you're riding that thin line and might have crossed it a little.

Perversely with your horsehoes, you need the adjustable springplates as well, then you'd get the tyre off. What the horseshoes are meant to do is negate the rear camber produced when you lower by splines. Just part of the assembly IMO. I got adjustable springplates from Creative Engineering when nobody else had any recently.

The key is take your time and think about/experiment with the consequences of you suspension changes in the garage before you drive it on the road.

 

[BJ1]

At the risk of being called names (as if I care) why oh why do you guys do this?

Will the bus drive better? NO - almost every lowered bus I've driven is way worse than stock. They wander, pound your butt, and wear tyres within 5K miles. Then try to change the rear wheels................. :roll:

Will it be safer? I think Zed has said it all above. I personally know of three buses where the front end has hit the road when adjusters have snapped - one at 60mph :shock: I have also seen some really horrendous suspension mods that are downright dangerous. How about CV joints and tie rod ends way beyond their design angles? I've seen two buses recently with wheel studs and nuts that were wrong for the new alloys - one wheel fell off ruining the rear quarter of a bus that had been in a 5 year resto and was immaculate. Try doing any of this in Germany - you would not get the bus back on the road because it would fail inspection, and rightly so. And you drive your family about in the van???

Will it look good? FFS - women wear 6 inch heels for the same reason! Fashion - don't get me started! I thought most VW buses were campers so why spend huge sums trying to make the bus wallow in the mud instead of gliding serenely over it all? This is the UK guys - it pisses down all summer. Fitting 4 wheel drive would be a better investment.

Bring the smiles back to your wife and kids - take it back to stock, spend more time camping and less in the garage. Sleep better and have more money for treats. Roll about under the bus fixing stuff without a jack. Stop worrying about the banging and thumping underneath and did I mention the rubbing tyres?

Feel free to discuss :satanlook:

God, I love rainy days - always something to do...............................

 

[Bwuttonmoon]

I have rear springplates with staddard wheels/tyres and can get them off and on no problem, I too have the occasional banging on the rear when loaded up but I thought it was the shocks reaching the end of their travel (standard shocks) I will be changing these soon so will let you know.

 

[mattd1984]

My rear used to bang when I first fitting horseshoe plates. I upgraded the shocks to KYB-GR2 shocks and it solved the problem. I also cut the last notch off the bump stops.

I run 15" stock splity steels with 185 / 65 and the rears come of easy, once you've removed the bottom shock bolt! :lol: 8)

 

[Rexer]

Looking from the rear, it looks level, but has more camber on one side than the other.

Dude, i had the same trouble, one of the horseshoe plates was fouling on the bump stop cup (bottom one), this caused it to kink out the camber. you need to grind down the horseshoe plates on the edge that touches the bump stop cup.

Also BRM's are a pain in the arse, your MWS ones are better than my Flat4's, i have a +5 offset whatever that is, all i know is they poke out more than yours.

I have fitted 165R15 tyres and they still wont go on.

For some reason you will always get one side rub and the other not, mine is the near side that is worse, my mate's is the off side, makes no sense, Guy and Ted at slamwerks said they have never seen A-arm mounts in the same location, they reckon VW just welded on the brackets and paid no attention to where they were putting them.

Horseshoe plates are only good for a mild lowering job using standard tyres and wheels along with drop spindles IMO

My thread with same problem http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42539" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[sharman]

OK - The constructive version.

FRONT: Why don't you lift it up a bit on the adjusters?
Do you still have bump-stops or even the arms they attach to? With a bit of cunning and the right tools it's possible to adapt the pump stops so they catch the wheel just before it rubs. Your head may hit the roof, but it probably does anyway as we've both reduced our suspension travel from about 3 massive British feet to a few puny European centimeteres.
Fashion has it's price...

REAR: Horseshoes. I was also seduced, but by the time the supplier supplied them :roll: I'd worked out I'd never in a million years get my prefered standard size wheels/tyres on and off even with a crowbar, so I lowered it first 1 then 2 notches. This is where you find out why some people notch and others manufacture notched springplates. I did something else.

Then with the bumpstops pulled off, I looked at what might hit what first. I jacked up one front corner to put a lot of weight on one rear wheel and LOOKED. The drive shaft will hit the chassis (if was resting on it so it was pretty obvious). So I looked to see what gap there was left for the bump stop. Not much. I added some to allow for the rubber compressing and hack-sawed off all but about half of one bulge and refitted them. Nothng hits anything, bangs or clanks. This in my opinion is as far as you can go without chopping chunks out of bits of your bus. With std tyres any lower and you be tubbing the rear arches and chassis notching. From you picture and the story you posted IMO you're riding that thin line and might have crossed it a little.

Perversely with your horsehoes, you need the adjustable springplates as well, then you'd get the tyre off. What the horseshoes are meant to do is negate the rear camber produced when you lower by splines. Just part of the assembly IMO. I got adjustable springplates from Creative Engineering when nobody else had any recently.

The key is take your time and think about/experiment with the consequences of you suspension changes in the garage before you drive it on the road.

Cheers for the advice, The front beam is adjusted to give max height. Some so-called expert originally welded the adjusters too far around to give 6" drop. Apparently, he forgot I was fitting dropped spindles. He also cut off both bump stops on the beam. I had to slot the adjuster plate to enable screw to turn more to get me back to standard. I did fit lower profile tyres on the front which dropped it approx 2" (I think).

On the rear, I had to saw the bottom segment from the bump stops as It was tight on one side. I am no wondering if it was knocking on the chassis or rear dampers as I have std ones fitted and not the shortened version. I haven't lowered the rear other than with horse shoe plates.

I'm thinking about sourcing some alternative 15" wheels with better offset so I can swap my tyres, then see how she sits. Horse shoes are def being replaced with either standard or adj plates. If the front still dips, I may then be able to refit std tyres on new rims to raise her slightly.

 

[KevH]

At the risk of being called names (as if I care) why oh why do you guys do this?

Will the bus drive better? NO - almost every lowered bus I've driven is way worse than stock. They wander, pound your butt, and wear tyres within 5K miles. Then try to change the rear wheels................. :roll:

Will it be safer? I think Zed has said it all above. I personally know of three buses where the front end has hit the road when adjusters have snapped - one at 60mph :shock: I have also seen some really horrendous suspension mods that are downright dangerous. How about CV joints and tie rod ends way beyond their design angles? I've seen two buses recently with wheel studs and nuts that were wrong for the new alloys - one wheel fell off ruining the rear quarter of a bus that had been in a 5 year resto and was immaculate. Try doing any of this in Germany - you would not get the bus back on the road because it would fail inspection, and rightly so. And you drive your family about in the van???

Will it look good? FFS - women wear 6 inch heels for the same reason! Fashion - don't get me started! I thought most VW buses were campers so why spend huge sums trying to make the bus wallow in the mud instead of gliding serenely over it all? This is the UK guys - it pisses down all summer. Fitting 4 wheel drive would be a better investment.

Bring the smiles back to your wife and kids - take it back to stock, spend more time camping and less in the garage. Sleep better and have more money for treats. Roll about under the bus fixing stuff without a jack. Stop worrying about the banging and thumping underneath and did I mention the rubbing tyres?

Feel free to discuss :satanlook:

God, I love rainy days - always something to do...............................

Whilst sympathising for the OP, and admiring your guts in firstly attempting the work and secondly acknowledging your mess, I can't help but agree with the above. As BJ1 says,why oh why. :roll:

Let's hope one of the good folk on the forum can help you get back on the road. Good luck matey.

 

[sharman]

Cheers, and had I known about the hassle I wouldn't have touched it. But I do like the look of a lowered bus :msn4: I am an engineer by trade and can honestly say that nothing has been fitted incorrectly by myself, it's a case of error of judgement/experience in selecting the right combo.
It's not a cheque book bus and I've tried to do the best within my budget. Although I'm thinking about biting the bullet and visiting either red9 or slamwerks for their advice before I waste more money.

 

[Bwuttonmoon]

At the risk of being called names (as if I care) why oh why do you guys do this?

Will the bus drive better? NO - almost every lowered bus I've driven is way worse than stock. They wander, pound your butt, and wear tyres within 5K miles. Then try to change the rear wheels................. :roll:

Will it be safer? I think Zed has said it all above. I personally know of three buses where the front end has hit the road when adjusters have snapped - one at 60mph :shock: I have also seen some really horrendous suspension mods that are downright dangerous. How about CV joints and tie rod ends way beyond their design angles? I've seen two buses recently with wheel studs and nuts that were wrong for the new alloys - one wheel fell off ruining the rear quarter of a bus that had been in a 5 year resto and was immaculate. Try doing any of this in Germany - you would not get the bus back on the road because it would fail inspection, and rightly so. And you drive your family about in the van???

Will it look good? FFS - women wear 6 inch heels for the same reason! Fashion - don't get me started! I thought most VW buses were campers so why spend huge sums trying to make the bus wallow in the mud instead of gliding serenely over it all? This is the UK guys - it pisses down all summer. Fitting 4 wheel drive would be a better investment.

Bring the smiles back to your wife and kids - take it back to stock, spend more time camping and less in the garage. Sleep better and have more money for treats. Roll about under the bus fixing stuff without a jack. Stop worrying about the banging and thumping underneath and did I mention the rubbing tyres?

Feel free to discuss :satanlook:

God, I love rainy days - always something to do...............................

I think a big part of why we own these vehicles is because they look 8) and they look better low .... if it was purely about useability I'd own a talbot motorhome :| :lol:

 

[ground hugger]

Looking at your pics with the standard wheels fitted your one spline lowered already,combine this with the horse shoe plates and your drive shafts are hitting the chassis.Take it up a spline and you should be ok...Dave

 

[KevH]

I think a big part of why we own these vehicles is because they look 8) and they look better low .... if it was purely about useability I'd own a talbot motorhome :| :lol:

...and you'd slam it :lol:

 

[Analog]

At the risk of being called names (as if I care) why oh why do you guys do this?

Will the bus drive better? NO - almost every lowered bus I've driven is way worse than stock. They wander, pound your butt, and wear tyres within 5K miles. Then try to change the rear wheels................. :roll:

Will it be safer? I think Zed has said it all above. I personally know of three buses where the front end has hit the road when adjusters have snapped - one at 60mph :shock: I have also seen some really horrendous suspension mods that are downright dangerous. How about CV joints and tie rod ends way beyond their design angles? I've seen two buses recently with wheel studs and nuts that were wrong for the new alloys - one wheel fell off ruining the rear quarter of a bus that had been in a 5 year resto and was immaculate. Try doing any of this in Germany - you would not get the bus back on the road because it would fail inspection, and rightly so. And you drive your family about in the van???

Will it look good? FFS - women wear 6 inch heels for the same reason! Fashion - don't get me started! I thought most VW buses were campers so why spend huge sums trying to make the bus wallow in the mud instead of gliding serenely over it all? This is the UK guys - it pisses down all summer. Fitting 4 wheel drive would be a better investment.

Bring the smiles back to your wife and kids - take it back to stock, spend more time camping and less in the garage. Sleep better and have more money for treats. Roll about under the bus fixing stuff without a jack. Stop worrying about the banging and thumping underneath and did I mention the rubbing tyres?

Feel free to discuss :satanlook:

God, I love rainy days - always something to do...............................

So a few people botched their lowering, it happens, deal with it. Fashion changes, but lowered buses have been f king cool for decades. 8)

 

[AndyO]

Sharman, I feel your pain. I have (very recently) been in the exact same position as you. Zed was a great help to me at the time. Am happy to have a chat, just PM for mobile number. I have dropped spindles, horseshoes, bought the coil overs for front as well, not sure if you have them. More importantly I have aftermarket Fuchs with I think similar offset, so rubbage, as well as camber were overcome. Was grief and took us a while to get it sorted, but finally I have a bus that sits low (ish) and rides VERY well, now I would go as far to say that dropped spindles have been the best add on so far......

 

[67panel]

dropped spindles have been the best add on so far......[/quote]with stock beam and coil overs.IMO.never had a prob with horseshoe plates,fitted a fair few at Grahams but then you will have probs with wrong offset wheels :roll:

 

[Analog]

I think a big part of why we own these vehicles is because they look 8) and they look better low .... if it was purely about useability I'd own a talbot motorhome :| :lol:

they have a certain je ne sais quoi. non?

also Zed, horseshoes rule! :msn4:

OP i think you need to raise it up slightly, i have adjusters on the front and horseshoes only on the rear, it is low enough and comfortable, can you move adjusters round to make the beam higher?

 

[ZedBed]

also Zed, horseshoes rule! :msn4:

I know I couldn't possibly get my wheels off with horseshoes unless I ground off the bottom springplate stop. Have you done this?