Ball Joint or Link Pin to go low and narrow?

[young_dubya]

i think the "heavy duty" aspect is to compensate for the fact that the bus is hanging on the balljoint rather than sitting on it. i would expect them to last a similar time though, its only the nut/thread end that is taking any extra loading to the originals. Spoke to Ballbag at deva and can say he seemed awful stolked wit his set up :mrgreen:

 

[stagger lee]

as you say mike, bj's should last decades, just mulling over all possibilities really. joints will always be available, but if they're some big secret and companies stop trading in the future, could prove a hassle. s'pose you buy an extra set just to be on the safe side, dunno?

i like the t2d setup, would solve my problems with clearence issues due to my spindles. but if i went this route i'd have to fit adjusters too.
as i'm sure my cut/twist + their spindles would be slightly lower than it is already is, i recall my spindles being about 2.75" drop somehting like that? i have tubbed arches, but the beam would be just too low for any practicality.

if i'm taking my beam off to fit adjusters, i'm narrowing it too. you then have to evaluate the diy route and buying one already done. diy is cheap in materials, but not time. 500 isn't a lot really for what you get; narrowed, adjusters, bearings, bushes, etc. i know which i'd go for.

from my reckonig the cost of t2d setup is comparable to a set of brazillian KL spindles (discs brakes) and new king/link pins, o.k you gotta find some trailing arms, but they shouldn't be too much? so there isn't much in the cost of a trik beam + t2d setup and a trik beam + KL setup? t2d is great for a mild hassle free lowering job, if affordable.

for me probably the deciding factor is the dependancy on a sole/limited provider for new/replacement bj's.

i'm sure a contributing factor to bj's replacing kl's would have been cost. bj's may not be as good as kl's technically, i read they weren't, but i don't know? but i bet bj's were much cheaper to produce/implement. no more messing about machining/shimming/tolerances etc. just get 'em pressed in and bolted up etc. time is money in manufacturing, yeah?

haven't even mentioned wishbone/coilover setups, which i'm sure are far superior, and work out cheaper maybe if considering a whole new front? personally i just don't like the idea of it. for me it needs to be close to indigenous.

 

[Clem]

for me probably the deciding factor is the dependancy on a sole/limited provider for new/replacement bj's.

i'm sure a contributing factor to bj's replacing kl's would have been cost. bj's may not be as good as kl's technically, i read they weren't, but i don't know? but i bet bj's were much cheaper to produce/implement. no more messing about machining/shimming/tolerances etc. just get 'em pressed in and bolted up etc. time is money in manufacturing, yeah?

haven't even mentioned wishbone/coilover setups, which i'm sure are far superior, and work out cheaper maybe if considering a whole new front? personally i just don't like the idea of it. for me it needs to be close to indigenous.

Yeah, long term BJ availability has crossed my mind. Ive little doubt that T2D and KnK will be around a long time, but given the surge in component development were seeing in this field there is a risk of stuff being superceded real quick. In just the last few years weve seen split vans being fitted with BJ beams, then bays being fitted with KnL's, and now BJ's are the future again :?

Are BJ's like bearings? So with some kind of part number they are universally available? I dunno ...

I think youll be right on the BJ cost thing .... and I guess future maintainence (less dealer service time).

I agree also on the whole 'bolt in front end' solution .... Im a purist at heart! :lol:

Ive a nice set of adjusters ready to go, so thats a small part of the equation, if I do the work myself I figure the job will owe me just the price of the T2D kit, plus some smaller skinnier tyres ... so not too bad to drop it 6"(?) and retain a safe and comfortable ride. Im not after anything that radical (in relative terms).

 

[Pete B]

Just like to put my little contribution in. Fitted a late split beam, already an roughly an inch lower and about an inch and a half narrower. The kink and link pin set up is out of the ark, but properly maintained it works fine and gives a great ride. It just needs greasing regularly. I have great respect for Paul Medhurst and his crew, but the ball joint set up to me is just wrong, the ball joints are upside down and however someone says, upside down is upside down. No offence meant. Gulp.

 

[stagger lee]

i'm sure bj's would always be available, though in the furure it might mean a new set of remachined arms to accomodate a new joints topology; different size taper, body diametere etc?

didn't now split beams in a bay give a lower and narrower stance from the start. here's a thought; fit a late split beam (bolt into your 60s bay) with machined bj trailing arms to fit the split beam, also machined for the t2d setup. you have 4+ inch drop before you start and abit narrower, so you may not need to narrow the beam? plus you have your original setup stored away if you ever want to go back to stock when slammed, narrowed vans become irksome, if not already?

KLs principle may well be ancient, but that doesn't mean it's bad, we all know that. like you say pete a regulary greasing and all is sweet.

on another note though, to fit a late split beam in a later bay what needs to be done? is it simply weld additional metal to the mounting plates and drill holes accordingly?

i know late split beams fit straight onto early bay bay, wide five setups? but my panel is abit of a mix. it's a '70, but had the later running gear fitted as stock; ate discs and narrow five wheels. so i'm asuming ti has the later wider beam fitment?

laters, j.

 

[ground hugger]

I think the tubes are closer together on a k/l beam
so the balljoint arms wouldn't work ,even if they where machined.A split beam has the same mount holes at the top
so its just a case of making the bottom holes in your chassis ,fit some tube in and bolt it through the chassis maybe

 

[young_dubya]

i know creative and i think transporterhaus sell a beam for late bays with the KnL positioning for the beam tubes. anything up to 1970 a late splitty beam will fit straight on im lead to believe. i will be heading down this route completeing the slamming, narrowing and dropping spindles myself to keep the cost as low as i can. cant wait :mrgreen:

 

[stagger lee]

you're right kl beam tubes are closer together than bj's. by how much i don't know, not much i reckon? but i know you've been able to get machined bj trailing arms to fit into kl beams for years. this solved the problem of extra height and width associated with fitting a bj beam into a split.

so the spindles (bj) must be able to fit? granted albeit opened out further than would be on a bj beam? but i thought the same, the extra opening out of the arms will probably lose some bj travel, how detremental i do not know, negligable as folks are doing it, it's proven.

i understand a litle more now about the mounting of beams. so i take it the width, distance between the mounting towers is the same on split/bay beams. it's just the position of the lower mounting holes. we're talking late here, 64-67, yeah?

i've seen creatives kl beams for bays, these are what i have my eye on. need more info/confirmation on the brazillian kl spindles, the ones that have fittings for stock vw discs. i've seen them on csp website.

 

[tonicman]

my way would be to buy a split beam narrow it yourself using endplates at a cost of around 50 quid if u hunt around or have em made, learn how to drop spindles at a cost of whatever is worn prob 100 quid put adjusters in 100 quid shorten arms yourself 15 quid for m14 fine tap, and buy some bushes for beam think about 40 quid but don't quote me, and there u have it done for under 500 quid i may have missed something out as i am basing this on doin a splitscreen as i did on mine and am new to bays and not been under mine yet

 

[stagger lee]

mmmm, not sure if would end up being that much cheaper diy to be honest? a descent split beam with arms and spindles isn't going to come cheap i reckon i.r.o 300 notes? cheaper if it hasn't got spindles. but old worn spindles can't be sorted cheapely. a new set of links and pins for a start, can you buy oversize ones? and then you have to potentially bush/bore/ream or whatever the old spindles due to worn pin bores. this'll effect bearings etc and you have to shed out whatever to get discs on the front to boot. i'm lucky i have the machining facilities to do all this if i'd choose to, but i wouldn't. new brazillian spindles and components, re-assemble dropped, bolt on some vw discs. granted probably spend an extra couple of hundred, but think of the hassle that'd be saved chasing parts, dealing with tossers all that cutting/sawing/grinding grubbing around in the muck of it all. nah, those days are over for me, lifes too short.

 

[young_dubya]

ive priced up a full kinky linkpin beam from Scott wilson, then endplates and adjusters using only the best stuff i can lower my bus with adjustable springplates as well using KCW's website i can slam and narrow my bus for about £650!!!! the whole thing, thats narrowed kinkylinkpin beam, dropped spindles and adjustable springplates for the the price of T2D's dropped spindles conversion!! :mrgreen: saying that though i have got a full engineeing workshop at my disposal so that will make things abit easier for me :lol:

KCW DIY Dropped spindles link: http://www.kustomcoachwerks.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1704" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
KCW DIY Narrowed beam link: http://www.kustomcoachwerks.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

compare that to bought in: £450 for a narrowed beam, £325 for spindles, then your springplates (if you got that route) £210, then your dampers £150-£200. if you after saving money DIY is deffinatley an option.

 

[mysteryspots]

I'm thinking of going the KnL route, My van is a April 71 model, will the KnL beam go straight in or will I need to modify?
Cheers.

 

[faux]

A KnL split beam will only fit buses up to August 1969. But you can buy Knl beams which will fit from companies like Creative, Red 9, Slamwerks etc

 

[ground hugger]

Found this http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=112678&highlight=spindles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; dont know if its of any use to any one

 

[mattp]

A KnL split beam will only fit buses up to August 1969. But you can buy Knl beams which will fit from companies like Creative, Red 9, Slamwerks etc

Well, almost true but I have a new genuine K+L beam that will fit my late 69 bus, got another complete new K+L beam (pre >69) aswell (stock) but the holes are for split/early bay so this won't fit so just another nice new paperweight

Difficult to get hold of but I think the new danburys have them -will get the measuring stick out at the next show.

For the beam complete (with CE adjusters) with K+L spindle set up to take 73> bay discs and am thinking or just keeping wide 5 ball joint and going back to stock after all that :lol:

Problem with choice is that it is so difficult to not change youtr mind once you source the part, your bank manager doesn't thank you either

 

[stagger lee]

i'm under the impression that all beams bj and kl are the same width, i.e distance between chassis rails. and so will fit all? is this right?
early beams, split and pre? bay have the same bolt pattern to mount the beam. later bays the two lower mounting holes are wider apart. i make this assumption from stuff i've read and this link, from earlier on in the thread. look at the cad drawings nearly at the bottom of the page.

http://www.kustomcoachwerks.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mattyp, when you talk about a kl setup with std bay calipers/discs. is this with an adapter plate, or using brazillian kl spindles that are made with caliper mounting. see csp link below fro what i mean.

http://www.csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=20107336020&rub1=Front%20Axle&rub2=Spindles&artnr=13229a&pn=0&sort=0&all=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[mattp]

mattyp, when you talk about a kl setup with std bay calipers/discs. is this with an adapter plate, or using brazillian kl spindles that are made with caliper mounting. see csp link below fro what i mean.

http://www.csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=16440875564&rub1=Front%20Axle&rub2=Spindles&artnr=13229a&pn=0&sort=0&all=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, the new genuine disc spindles at 167 euro (ea)

 

[mattp]

This should also make it easy to understand the differing mounting holes between splitty and pre August 69 bay and post August 69 bay

 

[mattp]

This should also make it easy to understand the differing mounting holes between splitty and pre August 69 bay and post August 69 bay

splitty and pre August 69 bay top pair of holes and middle pair of holes

post August 69 bay top pair of holes and bottom pair of holes

Hence why my brand new K+L beam will not fit (didn't think to check before ordering the beam :shock: )

 

[young_dubya]

where did you get those end plates dude? after a set for my own narrowing job :mrgreen: