Deep sump opinions

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CornishSilver

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Wondering who's running a deep sump for added cooling on motorway cruising? I am being directed into getting one by my tuner and engine builder(didn't build mine). I get that they give you a safety net of having more oil if your slack checking but not convinced about the cooling side of things. The sump will obviously be in more airflow and have cooling fins, what do you reckon? I have know clearance issues as I'm probably 3'' higher than stock. Cheers
 
My own option is that if it's a stock motor there really isn't any need for one . They can introduce another place for possible leaks plus with the added oil it will take a bit longer to reach operating temperatures and most wear occurs when the oil hasn't warmed up properly it can be just as bad the oil being too cool all the time as it can getting too hot.
If its a stock motor and it's all in working order there's no need . And as for a "safety net " checking oil should be a basic regular check anyway. There may be people with a more positive view on them .
Like I said just my opinion


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Is the tuner/engine builder selling you the deep sump?
If you're having overheating problems on the motorway you've got issues elsewhere, such as ignition timing and missing tinware, etc.
A stock engine won't need a deep sump, it will take much longer for the oil to come up to normal operating temperature, and there's no factual evidence of fitting one reducing the oil temperature. Your oil cooler is much much better at cooling oil than an aluminium plate with fins.
If you feel the need for extra oil capacity why not go for a full flow setup, that will add another litre or so of oil to the system and provide proper oil filtration at the same time. Then it's easier to add an external cooler if required.
 
sparkywig said:
Is the tuner/engine builder selling you the deep sump?
If you're having overheating problems on the motorway you've got issues elsewhere, such as ignition timing and missing tinware, etc.
A stock engine won't need a deep sump, it will take much longer for the oil to come up to normal operating temperature, and there's no factual evidence of fitting one reducing the oil temperature. Your oil cooler is much much better at cooling oil than an aluminium plate with fins.
If you feel the need for extra oil capacity why not go for a full flow setup, that will add another litre or so of oil to the system and provide proper oil filtration at the same time. Then it's easier to add an external cooler if required.
Haha yeah funny that, he's selling it at a very good price though to be fair (20% off heritage price). Pretty sure all my tin is there, but it is the final run in service so I was thinking it may be a tight exhaust valve. The dizzy has definitely seen better days too and its also having a 123 fit and tuned when he has it for the service so was thinking that this may well solve the issue without doing the sump. I know he puts them on all his builds so its something he favours as a matter of course I think. I don't really want to spend the extra money for no benefit and I definitely don't want a plaster for my new 1776 if theres a issue elsewhere. It overheats fully loaded after 10 mins at 65mph, maybe I'm expecting to much from my engine but I thought id be happily cruising at that speed at around 220f all day long
 
Freshly built engines do run hotter for a while, but you need to check valve clearances, timing, etc, to make sure everything is how it should be.
How do you know it's overheating, are you relying on a gauge? If so have you tested the sender for accuracy?
An easy check, and fairly cheap, is to fit a "save my bug" temperature dipstick. This will tell you if the oil is getting too hot.
 
Another reason to throw in the mix for fitting a deep sump, the extra capacity means that the oil is cycling through the engine less often which means it is less susceptible to being broken down over time. Whilst the frequency that you change your oil probably won't change, your oil should be doing a better job of cooling and lubricating whilst running a higher capacity in your sump.


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I have a gauge sparky that Imo is proving to be pretty consistent over the 2k mile is covered on this engine. Always sits at the same temp once warmed up except it creeps up by 30f on the motorway fully loaded. It may well be this turns out to be normal for my engine/gauge as I get that its just a indication rather than an exact temp. Its the 1st long journey fully loaded so may well turn out to be the norm. I think I will get the sender checked once the oils out on service but I'm fairly confident in its behaviour.
 
Moseley said:
Another reason to throw in the mix for fitting a deep sump, the extra capacity means that the oil is cycling through the engine less often which means it is less susceptible to being broken down over time. Whilst the frequency that you change your oil probably won't change, your oil should be doing a better job of cooling and lubricating whilst running a higher capacity in your sump.


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Yep I get that Mosely, makes perfect sense. Handy feature too if your on the continent or somewhere far away, and you know the oil can go on for a bit longer, say for the 500 mile trip home. Every year or 3k though will be the norm for mine though, nice to think you don't have to sweat it though if you are away
 
Deep sumps DO NOT aid cooling, the oil gets just as hot but takes longer to reach that temp. I have a 3.5 litre deep sump on my 2110 but run the oil on the minimum mark on the dipstick so the big crank I have to get to 2110cc doesn't froth the oil up inside the case. A stock motor doesn't need a deep sump at al, your issues lay elsewhere
 
K@rlos said:
Deep sumps DO NOT aid cooling, the oil gets just as hot but takes longer to reach that temp. I have a 3.5 litre deep sump on my 2110 but run the oil on the minimum mark on the dipstick so the big crank I have to get to 2110cc doesn't froth the oil up inside the case. A stock motor doesn't need a deep sump at al, your issues lay elsewhere

Of course they do. You're increasing the residence time of the oil and the area for heat transfer, so it will cool it more than stock. However, if the reason for adding a deep sump is just for an enhanced cooling effect, then there are better ways of achieving this (remote cooler etc).


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There's no factual evidence that deep sumps cool the oil any better than stock. They were designed for drag racing to reduce the friction of the crank turning in an oil bath by dropping the oil below the crank circumference.

Read what Bob Hoover says about deep sumps. You've never heard of Bob Hoover? It's worth an hour or so of your time. http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.co.uk/2006/

"Deep Sump
Is it a good idea to put one of those larger oil-sump deals on your bus? It sounds like a really good idea, but is there some technical reasons that it would be harmful?
I've never seen a deep sump that didn't leak, apparently because the sump-plate studs -- even when replaced with longer units -- were never meant to carry such a load.
Reduced ground clearance, while never a problem on the drag strip, can cost you an engine in daily driving. I've seen several crankcases with chunks knocked out of them as a result of hitting something with the attached (and quickly detached) deep sump. I've also seen a couple of engines lost when the oil pick-up extension came adrift, started sucking air.
With a filled deep-sump, the oil takes forever to warm-up. And of course you have to keep the thing filled if you want your dip-stick to work :) Drag-racing, we ran the engine with the minimum of oil, pouring in fresh for each run. It never showed up on the dip-stick because the dip-stick does not extend into the deep sump.
We used to call these things the 'Poor Man's Dry Sump'. Getting the liquid oil out of the crankcase gave us extra rpm, always important when you're trying to catch a clock. For roundy-round, rallys and road courses, we had a better results -- and less expense -- using a windage tray and fabricating extenders for the push-rod tubes. Running at speed, we thought the deeper sump would keep the oil from pooling-up out in the head... and maybe it did, for a few seconds. Fact is, running at speed the extra capacity of the deep sump doesn't mean squat -- we just ended up with an extra quart of oil in the outside head. Live and learn :)

I thought the added surface area of the deeply finned (and properly fabricated sumps, such as the one Gene Berg made) would result in cooler oil temps. It didn't. The oil took longer to come up to normal operating temperature but once there, it was about as hot as before. Apparently the oil cooler is about twenty times as effective at cooling the oil as any form of sump --- you'd need about five times the surface area of the typical deep-sump before you saw an appreciable drop in your engine's oil temp. There's bound to be some variation here. I'm talking about using a deep-sump in California. Veedubers in Finland probably swear by the things :)
All of the guys who claimed miraculously low oil temps after bolting on a deep-sump usually had chromed valve covers, chromed push-rod tubes, no thermostat and so on -- they were already running near the red-line before they bolted the thing on -- and most of their claims were based on only a few minutes of run-time -- the extra oil hadn't even warmed up yet.

Deep sumps are suicide off-pavement... or on-pavement for that matter, if you have to negotiate the occasional rough alley or railroad track.
Deep sumps tend to get in the way when you need to drop your engine, forcing you to raise the vehicle higher (bugs) to clear the rear apron and to use a different scooter (buses).

Finally, most of the deep sumps I've seen were very poorly made, the exception being the ones Gene Berg used to sell (I've not seen his most recent offering but I understand it's aluminum. It used to be magnesium and beautifully made, too.) The deep sumps sold locally are bubble-packed crap, cast in Taiwan and have casting inclusions and lots of CASTING SAND RESIDUE. (Someone on the Type2 List... [Thom?] ran into this problem.) It would be suicide to bolt such a thing on an engine.
The bottom line? Deep sumps first appeared on the drag strip. Kiddies bolt them on because they can and because they look kewl and because all the tits & ass VW magazines say it's the thing to do. I ran them on the strip but found them impractical on the road, sought other -- more effective -- solutions.

Your engine, your decision.
Want to increase your oil capacity? Add a full-flow oil filtration system. The big FRAM PH-8A canister holds nearly a quart of oil, the hoses about half a pint.

-Bob Hoover
-1995"
 
Agree with the above completely. The copy and paste doesn't say that there is no additional cooling provided by the deep sump, but more that the difference is negligible. But the larger capacity and increased surface area will increase the cooling effect, physics says so! I will have a gander at his page at some point for some bedtime reading.


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Deep sumps don't reduce oil temps end of. I've worked on and run both stock and performance engines in volkswagens and they have made no difference to cooling. Only reason for them is to allow you to run more oil to prevent stravation but at a level lower in the engine to reduce frothing and oil surges during acceleration, braking and cornering. If you need additional cooling on a STOCK engine then you have issues with need addressing. If you have a high compression, high revving performance engine which gets hot then fit a remote cooler and sandwich plate.
 
If you are accelerating faster than stock, then a sump is a good idea to ensure you get adequate oiling. Big motors can pull oil faster on hard acceleration than flows back to the stock sump during use, resulting in fried bearings. I run all my oil at about the halfway mark between high/low with 78 & 82mm cranks in bugs, and have yet to experience any frothing on moderately fast street use. My Berg 3-1/2qt sump doesn't leak (with JayCee sump plate).

I am interested to ask CornishSilver what his cruising speed is, and whether he has a stock 1970 trans. What carbs? Get a temperature dipstick/hot oil sensor to know when your oil is hot. Running around with 220'F oil all the time is BAD. New engines will run hotter until broken in, and ideally you don't take a new motor out and thrash it straight away. What weight oil are you using?
 

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