Help! Can Someone Make Sense of My Hotchpotch Van?

[zero34th]

First post on this forum and a newbie to the scene, so I hope I've got this in the right place...

This summer, after years of pining for one, I finally managed to buy a VW Type 2 T2 Bay. I was after something without an interior, but mechanically and structurally sound and that's more or less what I ended up with. When I got it, I was under the impression it was a 1972 crossover, but now I'm curious as to how I should proceed with fixing it up, since things don't seem as clear cut...

The Registration Document states that the Vehicle was first registered in August 1971 and that it is a Light Van, chassis number 231xxxxxxx. This number agrees with the VIN plate, which means its a Kombi or Microbus (not a Light Van) built between August 1970 and July 1971. So, therefore, my van should have low front indicators, small rear lights, crescent air intakes, flat wheel arches and a headlining in the cab only.

I know that the front end had been replaced and the majority of the cab seems to be a post 1973 layout (high front indicators, 1973-76 accelerator linkage and post 1974 steering column, indicator and wiper set-up), but after 18 previous keepers, what do you expect?

However, the rear lights are tall, the air intakes are square and the wheel arches are flared - have these been replaced as well or did this change start to come in earlier than 1972?

As I understand it, if it was a Kombi or Microbus the rear windows should be recessed, yet they are flush (correct if it was a Panel Van). Might this be another modification by a previous keeper and should I be looking to replace them or will they be OK?

Also, I am unsure what I should do about the interior above the waist-line in the rear - how should the metal-work around the windows and the side pillars be covered up (if at all) if the headlining is only supposed to be in the cab?

zero34th

 

[beef]

Late 71 build, as far as I know, is known as a 72 model. It should have low front indicators, tall rear lights, large air intakes and flared arches. Mine is the same.

 

[mattyd72]

Post a pic of your engine bay please mate that tells a lot about the age of a bus.
This is not sounding like it will end well it reads like a late bay with a early chassis number.

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[bigdaz]

The new front panels come with high indicators and back in the day it was seen as a upgrade to make the van look newer than it was.
Dosent explain the late steering column.
Are there holes where the wipers switch would have been on the dash
How many heater kevers does it have?
I would have thought it would be very difficult to change from factory windows to conversion windows and why would you?
Is there an M plate on the bulk head behind the seat?

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[zero34th]

Thanks for the replies!

@mattyd72; I'll get a picture up of the engine bay later today. I don't reckon its a cut-n-shut though - like I said, the cab is a complete replacement (you can see the join inside at the top of the door pillars either side of the windscreen and the previous owner spent £5000 getting it to that state).

Heh, I'd probably best post a picture of what it looked like when I bought it as well - how do I blank out the number plate?

@bigdaz; there are holes in the dash - lots of them! Someone has obviously fitted non-standard switches at some point then removed them. There is a hole next to the hazard light switch, three holes below the radio plate (one filled with a toggle switch for the non-standard washer pump) and the horn push and lighter socket have been moved to between the dials. Oh, and the working ignition is a non-standard, non-VW one in the side of the dash, under the blower outlet!
I've been told that the number of screws attaching the dash to the front door pillars can be an indication of age - 3 each side means low indicators and 2 each side means high ones or possibly the other way round?
Currently there are 2 heater levers in the dash although there is a small diagram that shows the position of 3 levers at the bottom of that panel. The heating system itself can best be described as not there...
The bulkheads behind the seats have both been cut down level with the top of the wheel-arches - presumably one of the previous keepers decided to fit swivel seats, then didn't. Would an M-Plate be located anywhere else? The VIN Plate by the way is an approximately 40x100mm rectangle of aluminium stamped with the chassis number, although this number does match the one screwed in the engine bay.

 

[aogrady]

Thanks for the replies!

@mattyd72; I'll get a picture up of the engine bay later today. I don't reckon its a cut-n-shut though - like I said, the cab is a complete replacement (you can see the join inside at the top of the door pillars either side of the windscreen and the previous owner spent £5000 getting it to that state).

Heh, I'd probably best post a picture of what it looked like when I bought it as well - how do I blank out the number plate?

@bigdaz; there are holes in the dash - lots of them! Someone has obviously fitted non-standard switches at some point then removed them. There is a hole next to the hazard light switch, three holes below the radio plate (one filled with a toggle switch for the non-standard washer pump) and the horn push and lighter socket have been moved to between the dials. Oh, and the working ignition is a non-standard, non-VW one in the side of the dash, under the blower outlet!
I've been told that the number of screws attaching the dash to the front door pillars can be an indication of age - 3 each side means low indicators and 2 each side means high ones or possibly the other way round?
Currently there are 2 heater levers in the dash although there is a small diagram that shows the position of 3 levers at the bottom of that panel. The heating system itself can best be described as not there...
The bulkheads behind the seats have both been cut down level with the top of the wheel-arches - presumably one of the previous keepers decided to fit swivel seats, then didn't. Would an M-Plate be located anywhere else? The VIN Plate by the way is an approximately 40x100mm rectangle of aluminium stamped with the chassis number, although this number does match the one screwed in the engine bay.

Hi,

As for the new front end, seems a lot of work, maybe i'm reading more into this, but i'm not sure if it all adds up?

Also the chassis number on the us busses anyway is on a plate rivited to the top of the dash, visable through the windcreen, and the chassis number in the engine compartment should be stamped directly into the metal, not on a plate crewed anywhere.

Post up some pictures of the engine bay etc, and we can see what you have, but on the face of it, it sounds like a late bay with a new front end (accident damage?) with earlybay tags?

The front chassis area underneath is different on a early bay too

Alistair

 

[zero34th]

I'll get a photo of th front end then as well

 

[zero34th]

OK, some photos. I know it looks like a Late Bay, but the chassis number and registration document indicate its an Early one, hence my confusion. First up, this is what it looked like when I bought it in July this year;

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/small_purple_cat13/01DoorlessShell20-07-13_zps9a3705d9.jpg?1387053178997" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As requested a shot of the interior of the engine bay (Fireboy fitted by myself to deal with any overheating surprises) - I know the pipes for the heat exchangers are missing, but so is the rest of the heating system!

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/small_purple_cat13/34andWithExtinguisher27-10-13_zpsd8c640eb.jpg?1387053178993" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wasn't able to get a shot of the front underside in the end today I'll see if I can take one and get it posted tomorrow.

 

[rickyrooo1]

that's a latebay and later than 74, petrol cap isn't covered by a flap, lock is in door not slider handle, it was a panel van you can tell by the windows, i reckon it's a v5 swap for free tax from a rusty 71. What does the engine hatch look like?

 

[StuF]

Posted the pics for you 8)

 

[StuF]

that's a latebay and later than 74, petrol cap isn't covered by a flap, lock is in door not slider handle, it was a panel van you can tell by the windows, i reckon it's a v5 swap for free tax from a rusty 71. What does the engine hatch look like?

Ricky - by the term "v5 swap" do you mean a possible ringer?

 

[rickyrooo1]

that's a latebay and later than 74, petrol cap isn't covered by a flap, lock is in door not slider handle, it was a panel van you can tell by the windows, i reckon it's a v5 swap for free tax from a rusty 71. What does the engine hatch look like?

Ricky - by the term "v5 swap" do you mean a possible ringer?

:msn4: it wouldn't be the last.

 

[rickyrooo1]

if the person who "modified" the van wasn't clever have a look for the m plate, either behind the drivers seat on the bulkhead or riveted to the heat pipes behind the dash, post a close up of the vin area in the engine bay - does it look tampered with?

 

[aogrady]

if the person who "modified" the van wasn't clever have a look for the m plate, either behind the drivers seat on the bulkhead or riveted to the heat pipes behind the dash, post a close up of the vin area in the engine bay - does it look tampered with?

Hi,

He posted:

The bulkheads behind the seats have both been cut down level with the top of the wheel-arches - presumably one of the previous keepers decided to fit swivel seats, then didn't. Would an M-Plate be located anywhere else? The VIN Plate by the way is an approximately 40x100mm rectangle of aluminium stamped with the chassis number, although this number does match the one screwed in the engine bay.


So no bulkheads with M Codes and screwed on VIN

Alistair

 

[lard]

it's not sounding promising - maybe a few possible worst case scenario's to consider - 3 I can think of below..

1/ Firstly it could be the case that a few owners along the line someone with a > 74 panel van late bay fancied tax free motoring and swapped vin's from a 1971 scrapper to do so...

2/ or, considering it's had an extensive front-end restoration, a > 74 panel van conversion had an accident, was written off by the insurance company and rather than follow the process of returning it to the road as a category x write-off, to retain value a scrap 71 identity was swapped over to it with a clean history...

3/ finally and the most sinister.. a > 74 panel conversion was stolen and then given the identity of a scrap 71 so that it could then be sold on for profit (referred to as "ringing" above) - consider that it had a funky hand painted pattern on it when you bought it that would disguise it enough from anyone on the lookout for a missing >74 panel conversion..

Trying to think of legitimate reasons why it would have the wrong year vin's and reg on it to break it gently (was thinking along the lines of a south african import given the identity of a UK vehicle to avoid registering e.t.c.) or a mistake by DVLA applying for a lost registration? - but, from info available on the vehicle its possible that something fraudulent has occurred along the way and I'd guess from a recent registered owner, as, with any enthusiast purchasing the vehicle you would start asking questions as you have done about period specific anomalies,

You can request previous keeper details from the DVLA to write to them (hoping they are still at the previous address) and ask them what van was like (small rear lights e.t.c.) and if they have any photo's so that you can attempt to follow the chain and see where the mixup began,

You didn't say where you purchased it from? Was it someone you knew who could give you more info? A business perhaps that you can approach? If it was indeed the previous owner then confronting/questioning them with the evidence may provoke a rapid offer to buy the van back as technically (if one of the 3 reasons above) then imo they have committed fraud selling it to you......

Lastly - I hope it is something daft but if not then I feel for you as now that it's come to light not 100% sure on best plan of action for you - possibly contact VOSA/DVLA and ask for advice on what to do about it if it does prove to be the wrong registration/VIN - hopefully get the v5/reg issued for correct year?

 

[lard]

Just to add - might be worth unscrewing that vin in the engine bay and you will likely see the correct one stamped underneath it

If you get the correct VIN number you could then contact the DVLA and explain the situation - they will hopefully be able to run it through the system and get the correct identity of the vehicle - it might have been a tax dodge and possibly issue you the correct reg? Or it may be a crossover/early with a replacement front end, sliding door, and various other panels/parts from a donor (with the same vin stamped underneath the plate...?)

but bare in mind if it's stolen then technically it's not your van....personally I'd be contacting the person I bought it off for a f&"@ing good explanation :evil:


EDIT:

hang on a mo.... what side is the sliding door supposed to be on with a RHD? isn't it supposed to be on the other side? ..... could it be a US LHD converted to RHD and vin swapped for a UK van?

If that's the case, and you say the previous owner had the work done, then all the more reason to be asking him WTF he is playing at - you can then possibly reveal the correct VIN and get it re-registered with DVLA to correct year? (or get him to give you the correct registration for the van!!)

 

[Rippers]

I would bet its a ringer sadly, as it late front and rear, the fuel cap is the most obvious point. Quite a nice spec if its an original RHD with right hand sliding door, might have been a post van.

I would now get the dvla involved tell them you suspect its a ringer, there was another guy that did this on the site and I there was no way of tracing the original van so they had no interest in it and just gave it an age related plate and a clear title.. this won't make it tax free now thou as it deffo after '73 imo although you might be able to wing the pre 74 tax free that comes in next year

Read this thread:- http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49728&hilit=ringer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good luck I don't think you have too much to worry about but 100% I would get a clean title for it

 

[mattyd72]

if the person who "modified" the van wasn't clever have a look for the m plate, either behind the drivers seat on the bulkhead or riveted to the heat pipes behind the dash, post a close up of the vin area in the engine bay - does it look tampered with?

Hi,

He posted:

The bulkheads behind the seats have both been cut down level with the top of the wheel-arches - presumably one of the previous keepers decided to fit swivel seats, then didn't. Would an M-Plate be located anywhere else? The VIN Plate by the way is an approximately 40x100mm rectangle of aluminium stamped with the chassis number, although this number does match the one screwed in the engine bay.


So no bulkheads with M Codes and screwed on VIN

Alistair

Depends how late it is, it may be on the heater pipes under the dash as Rick stated

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[rickyrooo1]

As said above, m plate may still be on heater pipes behind dash some lates have it there.
slider is on wrong side for rhd van unless it's had a steering conversion (it doesn't look like a twin slider)
vin plate shouldn't be riveted on - the vin is stamped in the engine bay.

we need more pictures - floor on passenger side
rear of engine where vin is/should be
rear hinges on engine lid
it's deffo 74 or later though matey - you've been done over.

 

[mattyd72]

As said above, m plate may still be on heater pipes behind dash some lates have it there.
slider is on wrong side for rhd van unless it's had a steering conversion (it doesn't look like a twin slider)
vin plate shouldn't be riveted on - the vin is stamped in the engine bay.

we need more pictures - floor on passenger side
rear of engine where vin is/should be
rear hinges on engine lid
it's deffo 74 or later though matey - you've been done over.

^^^^

Its certainly looking that way.



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