Hydrogen fuel cell , anyone tried one

[poptop2]

I am like most people with a bay getting quite concerned about the price of fuel and the relatively low mpg returns our vans offer , its lead me to look at other forms of fuel or a way of offsetting the extortionate pump prices .

i have looked into a lpg conversion which on the face of it looks good but with future price hikes like what happened with derv as soon as it got popular combined with the initial £1000 outlay , i came to the conclusion i do not use my van enough to recoup that outlay , so now i am looking at hydrogen fuel cells .

The worry is our engines have soo many air pipes andd potential leak spots that the hydrogen might leak out into the engine bay causing a fire - nahh not a bay surely not ?. but seriously its a big consideration .

Has anyone got one of these or tried one , doe's anyone have any thoughts on them , all replys would be appreciated .

This

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydrogen-cell-hho-hydrogen-generator-for-engines-1-6-Lt-2-1-Lt-efie-/260983571793?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3cc3d54551" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ta Malc

 

[Geeze]

Initial (cynical! :lol: ) response is that it appears to fly in the face of the basic laws of thermodynamics.

So did a quick google and seems am not the only one to think this....
http://www.eco-scams.com/archives/709" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you google 'HHO generator' or 'Browns gas' you'll find quite a bit and can make up your own mind.

 

[uber cool]

if you're worried about fuel costs and not bothered about originality go for a golf or polo diesel engine. Easier and safer conversion to do.

 

[Trikky2]

so now i am looking at hydrogen fuel cells .



Has anyone got one of these or tried one , doe's anyone have any thoughts on them , all replys would be appreciated

There doesent seem to be a "face palm" smiley.

The simple answer is NO - dont do it. Total con/scam run by - guess what? - conning scammers. :shadey: :shadey:

As posted by Geeze - the entire concept flies in the face of thermodynamics, energy, etc. in fact it flies in the face of all the rules that govern how the universe, everything and even 42, work.

These scammers rely on finding their marks amongst those who never received or missed their science education.

If on the other hand you still wish to try one of these kits I would recommend you buy at least ten, because that way you will be able to sell off all your spare hydrogen and make lots of cash.

I ran my bus on snake oil for year which worked quite well but have now changed to perpetual motion, because its lower maintenance (less snakes to squeeze) - the only problem is the darn thing wont stop and I have to leave it running 24/7..

 

[terrier man]

:lol: No ones mentioned what I'm working on a compressed air powered engine. :shock: :lol: :lol: it is possible but a bit noisey at the moment.

 

[poptop2]

so now i am looking at hydrogen fuel cells .



Has anyone got one of these or tried one , doe's anyone have any thoughts on them , all replys would be appreciated

There doesent seem to be a "face palm" smiley.

The simple answer is NO - dont do it. Total con/scam run by - guess what? - conning scammers. :shadey: :shadey:

As posted by Geeze - the entire concept flies in the face of thermodynamics, energy, etc. in fact it flies in the face of all the rules that govern how the universe, everything and even 42, work.

These scammers rely on finding their marks amongst those who never received or missed their science education.

If on the other hand you still wish to try one of these kits I would recommend you buy at least ten, because that way you will be able to sell off all your spare hydrogen and make lots of cash.

I ran my bus on snake oil for year which worked quite well but have now changed to perpetual motion, because its lower maintenance (less snakes to squeeze) - the only problem is the darn thing wont stop and I have to leave it running 24/7..

ok point taken - i only asked

But on the other hand , could you tell me why creating hydrogen from a glass of water using only spare generated electric from your generator won't work , i remember doing it in science classes 30 odd years ago and it seemed to work then .

Or is the problem that you still inject the same amount of fuel through the carb ? --even though its now mixed with hydrogen enriched air instead of just oxygen its still the same amount of fuel .

 

[terrier man]

Don't feel embarassed, I know what you mean it's a device placed by your air intake, pretty big in the States, its not a fuel cell but gives off Hydrogen gas to your Carb which mixes with your petrol for a bigger bang in theory increased mpg. Don't know if it will work with a Aircooled VW as I think it generates more heat. :roll:

Get your Bus to run on water :lol: here's the link.
http://www.water-as-gasoline.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Looks a bit Heath Robinson to me. :roll:

 

[Geeze]

But on the other hand , could you tell me why creating hydrogen from a glass of water using only spare generated electric from your generator won't work , i remember doing it in science classes 30 odd years ago and it seemed to work then .

Laws of Thermodynamics in a nutshell:

You can't get out (energy) more than you put in (energy again).

So you have to use horsepower (burning petrol) to turn the dynamo (generating electricity) to power the hydrowasgasthingamabob (making hydrogen) to then burn the hydrogen. Each of those reactions in the chain uses power.
In a perfect world, you'd end up back where you started.

In practice, each of those reactions is inefficient. For example, burning petrol to make the horsepower:
Engines are hot and noisy. That's why they need cooling and silencers. Except the heat and noise are the unwanted by-products of the combustion. If an engine was 100% efficient, it would run silently and at ambient temperature.
So in practice, running one of these should (laws of physics being dutifully applied) use more fuel, not less....

It works in the classroom because it's plugged into the mains.
What you can't see (and the teacher may not explain) is that it takes a lot more energy (in terms of electricity) being used to do the demonstration than is released as potential energy (hydrogen fuel) from the reaction.

 

[poptop2]

But on the other hand , could you tell me why creating hydrogen from a glass of water using only spare generated electric from your generator won't work , i remember doing it in science classes 30 odd years ago and it seemed to work then .

Laws of Thermodynamics in a nutshell:

You can't get out (energy) more than you put in (energy again).

So you have to use horsepower (burning petrol) to turn the dynamo (generating electricity) to power the hydrowasgasthingamabob (making hydrogen) to then burn the hydrogen. Each of those reactions in the chain uses power.
In a perfect world, you'd end up back where you started.

In practice, each of those reactions is inefficient. For example, burning petrol to make the horsepower:
Engines are hot and noisy. That's why they need cooling and silencers. Except the heat and noise are the unwanted by-products of the combustion. If an engine was 100% efficient, it would run silently and at ambient temperature.
So in practice, running one of these should (laws of physics being dutifully applied) use more fuel, not less....

It works in the classroom because it's plugged into the mains.
What you can't see (and the teacher may not explain) is that it takes a lot more energy (in terms of electricity) being used to do the demonstration than is released as potential energy (hydrogen fuel) from the reaction.

The search for perpetual motion springs to mind .

 

[Marvel]

I hear steam power is pretty good, that's just hot water!!!!! :lol:

 

[Eeza]

Hmmm sounds like a plan.... Not :lol:

 

[Pete B]

[ have now changed to perpetual motion, quote]

Don't know how to do links, but type in 'www.real-free-energy.co.uk' and you will find the answer to the worlds energy problems!
The owner/author of the site is a mate of mine and his search for the holy grail over the last 30 years has cost him his marriage, home and at last count, in excess of 300k of his own money.
Trevor is a lovely bloke, you will not find a kinder and more considerate person ever, but if you check out his site will understand why we never mention 'wheel' or 'lever' whilst in his presence....... :lol:

 

[sparkywig]

Bloody hell Pete, it'll be an interesting conversation for about 10 minutes.....

http://www.real-free-energy.co.uk/new%20web%20site/new%20web%20site.htm#Page%201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Trikky2]

[ have now changed to perpetual motion, quote]

Don't know how to do links, but type in 'www.real-free-energy.co.uk' and you will find the answer to the worlds energy problems!
The owner/author of the site is a mate of mine and his search for the holy grail over the last 30 years has cost him his marriage, home and at last count, in excess of 300k of his own money.
Trevor is a lovely bloke, you will not find a kinder and more considerate person ever, but if you check out his site will understand why we never mention 'wheel' or 'lever' whilst in his presence....... :lol:

Had a look at the site and the "video". I see what you mean.

The term "needs help" springs to mind.

 

[terrier man]

Bloody hell Pete, it'll be an interesting conversation for about 10 minutes.....

http://www.real-free-energy.co.uk/new%20web%20site/new%20web%20site.htm#Page%201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More like 10 seconds. :shock:
I'm sticking at being a petrol-head, less brain ache & bugger the money. :lol:

 

[poptop2]

No wonder we love old motors , good god some of us are stuck in a timewarp technology wise ( me included ) , i did email one of the sellers of one of these hydogen fuel cells stating that i was going to buy one and have posted up the fact on a couple of vw forums , i would be monitoring the results and reporting back to over 3000 members and that i hoped his claims of 20% fuel saaving would stand up to the test

His reply was - You can always point out the benefits of the system ,ie it burns way cleaner and it will go through emmision tests easier ( i did'nt tell him we don't do emmision tests ) he never once tried to telll me directly it would save me 20% on my fuel - it will of course burn cleaner its gas for gawd sake , but i doubt very much there's a fuel saviing to be had so the £90 is staying in my pocket .

 

[pottinger]

and even 42, ..

:lol: :lol:

 

[alikat]

A friend of mine here has a gross hydrogen generator on his bug. He says he has to use petrol to cool the motor as the hydrogen , with higher calorific value, burns hotter. He has a 24v generator and claims 96/mpg (US gal). I hope to get this on our shop dyno soon to check it out. The downside is a rubber bladder expansion tank for periodic the excess hydrogen - we know what happened to the Hindenburg!

 

[terrier man]

The downside is a rubber bladder expansion tank for periodic the excess hydrogen - we know what happened to the Hindenburg![/quote]

:shock: Yes but 96mpg is very tempting, can't see a Firetec system cope with that. :lol: :lol:

 

[jonboylaw]

Hmm, so how much air does your engine consume per minute? and how much Hydrogen would one of these electrolysis machines produce...
To get to 96 mpg that engine will have to be running awfully lean (on petrol) so consuming a lot of Hydrogen. As said before... total con, but people want to believe it when they hear good things.