Insulation question
- Thread starter Tony73tt
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I stripped all mine out, as it was trapping condensation.
Make sure all the dynamat is securely fixed as well, with no air pockets or gaps that can trap moisture.
Make sure all the dynamat is securely fixed as well, with no air pockets or gaps that can trap moisture.
As Wig says, you can`t have the wrong type of insulation, anything like sheeps wool or fibreglass has way too many open air pockets that allow moisture laden air in to settle and condensate, If you insulate you must use closed cell thermal insulation like celotex or Kingspan if you have room for it or possibly isotrisofix types of insulation and make it as continuous as possible as any large uninuslated areas will attract warm air to a cold area and concentrate the moisture. And make it as tight as poss. I`m just in the middle of doing my cab area with a 25mm celotex sheet and a foamex layer as a ceiling over the top. I did the same in my pop top and it worked great plus I had it vinyl wrapped in a tropical sunrise,, looks great. Looking for ideas on what to put in the cab and the rear section as in pictures etc, I could even have it look like the original ceiling if I wanted :? The tropical beach scene seems to have limited a ```Theme``` if you like. I`m toying with retro beach babes for the back and the helicopter roof dash for the front but am really open to ideas and thoughts. Good luck with your insulation and that new glue `Sticks Like Shit` seems to work really well :lol:
Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,,, Been on it three years so far :lol:
:lol:
Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,,, Been on it three years so far :lol:
:lol:
....and if you think about it putting the insulation on the metal panel and leaving a gap door card side :roll: all your doing is as above creating more condensation on the metal,put the insulation in so it doesn't touch the out side the you got no condensation probs
robins said:
I'd say the opposite. The point of dynamat style insulation is that you want to stop the moist air inside the van from coming into contact with the coldest parts of the van, i.e. the external metal skin. Adding further insulation in the form of sheeps wool, closed cell foam etc etc further helps to stop the air inside from circulating close to the outer skin of the van. Obviously the downside to having all the insulation in situ is that any moisture that does find its way into it or behind it will be harder to remove and can pool over time.... Insert rust warning here!
robins said:
Ok, but my point still stands, you want the insulation against the external panels. The key to avoiding condensation / rust issues is to stop the air from inside the van from coming into contact with the cold panels. Having the insulation not touching the panels means you're not insulating it. Unless you can seal off the area using the doorcard you're going to get water condensing here that'll probably end up getting absorbed by the insulation.
matt-me
Well-known member
I'm with Sparky. I don't think these vans lend themselves to being thermally insulated unless you can insulate right across every piece of metal (like where panels join, thus between cards) as any warm air will just condensate there. There will always be cold bridges that cannot be insulated. Adding boards that are vapour impermeable such as celotex will reduce the evaporation of any collected condensation. Sound insulation yes, as you don;t have to cover every part of every panel to get a good sound reduction.
This is my opinion but with some knowledge from being in the construction industry for many years. We are about to build a new block of 8 flats using a steel frame but with timber panels between the frame and clad with brick outside. We have an environmental consultant who is also a Passive house designer. In other words he knows his insulation. To maximise the thermal performance of the building and to minimise cold bridging (which was a major concern of his) we are wrapping the whole frame and the panels externally in insulation. Including sitting the raft foundation on insulation so no foundation is in direct contact with the cold ground. A bus is similar construction really with similar principles.
I am sure insulation will help in a little way keep heat in overnight but I suggest the risk of condensation collecting and causing problems is not worth the risk.
Hope this helps.
Al
This is my opinion but with some knowledge from being in the construction industry for many years. We are about to build a new block of 8 flats using a steel frame but with timber panels between the frame and clad with brick outside. We have an environmental consultant who is also a Passive house designer. In other words he knows his insulation. To maximise the thermal performance of the building and to minimise cold bridging (which was a major concern of his) we are wrapping the whole frame and the panels externally in insulation. Including sitting the raft foundation on insulation so no foundation is in direct contact with the cold ground. A bus is similar construction really with similar principles.
I am sure insulation will help in a little way keep heat in overnight but I suggest the risk of condensation collecting and causing problems is not worth the risk.
Hope this helps.
Al
As Matt.me says the insulation in that building is not I guess touching the out side brickwork as I said it shouldn't touch the out side of the van.....if it should then all them houses I built will be cold and wrongly insulted....but like Matt said why bother any your choice mate
I think the point being made is that you need the insulation to extend the length of all panels you are insulating. It needs to be touching the external panels to stop air from condensing there. The 'cold bridges' in reference are areas such as the metal framework that give each panel it's structural rigidity - these are the parts that you can't wrap insulation over the top of otherwise the door cards wouldn't fit.
There's two issues here, one is insulating to keep heat in - in which case you would want to add as much material as possible between you and the outside of the van, and the second issue being how to choose and apply it to minimise condensation from getting trapped.
I agree with the sentiment that no insulation is probably the best option unless you can dehumidify your van internally after each camping trip!
There's two issues here, one is insulating to keep heat in - in which case you would want to add as much material as possible between you and the outside of the van, and the second issue being how to choose and apply it to minimise condensation from getting trapped.
I agree with the sentiment that no insulation is probably the best option unless you can dehumidify your van internally after each camping trip!
There was a reason VW fitted drain holes to the bottoms of each sill. If you fit insulation you trap the moisture into the structure.
But as stated previously, your bus your rules.
But as stated previously, your bus your rules.
- Joined
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- Dormobile
Flashband all over and no insulation
J & P
J & P
gas1man said:
You only need a square in the centre of a panel for sounddeadening. If you cover the panel with it, it can still trap water unless it's heated and rollered down when applied. Even then it may lift if the panel's not perfectly clean.
I've had this issue with my squareback and dynamat. It's trapped moisture and started to rot the floorpan.
sparkywig said:
So don't put nothing on them leave alone
that includes dropped spindles spring plates disc brakes adjusters everything you change a problem turns up ....do I sound like I'm pissed off with mine :roll:- Joined
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- Dorset
- Year of Your Van(s)
- 1971
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- Dormobile
Thanks Sparkywig hopefully it will outlive me. Rich don't worry man be happy. I do know what you mean.
Still trying to finish the engine mounting stripped bolt.
J & P
Still trying to finish the engine mounting stripped bolt.
J & P
Excellento, that`s a great discussion and Rich has finally got to the crux of the matter in that last post. If you leave them stock they may last longer, if you change anything there will be repercussions, some good some bad. Most of what has been said above ^^^ is pretty accurate. So leave them stock and in a nice warm garage and they might last another fifty years or change them a little or a lot to how you want them to work. I`m stock engine because the journey is part of or most of the fun of these, I`m a tiny bit lower so it fits in the garage and I`ve managed to stay away from the heady concoction that is ``slammed`` or the addictive drug of more ponies. I have however fallen under the influence of fidgeting and fiddling and that`s mostly inside (mostly) I`ve insulated the fibreglass pop top with 25mm of celotex and 3mm of foamex and the difference is very good insulation wise. I`m about to do the same in the cab area and the rear area and am a little concerned about getting total contact to the roof structure to avoid a space for condensation to form. I know that the smaller the space the less the condensation etc etc etc but I`m working on it and I think I have a decent solution but as with everything else it needs proving. As with comparisons with buildings, that is not valid unless we are talking about the same materials and I will be interested in this block of flats thing because your man has the same dilemma with the steel part of the construction, he`ll have to get the insulation to encase the steel but as that is almost impossible to get it 100% then the steel will have to be coated first then layered to final insulation level. The big problem with steel is it`s waterproof but thermally conductive as in it will transfer the heat / cold all along it`s length like an rsj or a van panel and the outside temperature needs a barrier between it and us because you can`t heat up the county with your propex but you might heat your van if you can stop the heat escaping a bit. Cavity walls are a different proposition in that they are not waterproof generally and water from rain etc will run down the inside of the outerskin but it keeps the weather off the inner skin and the insulation if it`s not waterproof like fibre batts etc, plus it would need a little air circulation but just a little to stop it stinking up the place. Other insulants are indeed waterproof and can happily touch the outer skin like poly styrene or kingspan celotex carbon coated balls even but the big big big difference is that the outer skin usually is not thermally conductive. They also do commercial outer skins that have insulation formed on them even though they are metal,,, that`s interesting.
Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,,,,Loving this one :mrgreen:
or change them a little or a lot to how you want them to work. I`m stock engine because the journey is part of or most of the fun of these, I`m a tiny bit lower so it fits in the garage and I`ve managed to stay away from the heady concoction that is ``slammed`` or the addictive drug of more ponies. I have however fallen under the influence of fidgeting and fiddling and that`s mostly inside (mostly) I`ve insulated the fibreglass pop top with 25mm of celotex and 3mm of foamex and the difference is very good insulation wise. I`m about to do the same in the cab area and the rear area and am a little concerned about getting total contact to the roof structure to avoid a space for condensation to form. I know that the smaller the space the less the condensation etc etc etc but I`m working on it and I think I have a decent solution but as with everything else it needs proving. As with comparisons with buildings, that is not valid unless we are talking about the same materials and I will be interested in this block of flats thing because your man has the same dilemma with the steel part of the construction, he`ll have to get the insulation to encase the steel but as that is almost impossible to get it 100% then the steel will have to be coated first then layered to final insulation level. The big problem with steel is it`s waterproof but thermally conductive as in it will transfer the heat / cold all along it`s length like an rsj or a van panel and the outside temperature needs a barrier between it and us because you can`t heat up the county with your propex but you might heat your van if you can stop the heat escaping a bit. Cavity walls are a different proposition in that they are not waterproof generally and water from rain etc will run down the inside of the outerskin but it keeps the weather off the inner skin and the insulation if it`s not waterproof like fibre batts etc, plus it would need a little air circulation but just a little to stop it stinking up the place. Other insulants are indeed waterproof and can happily touch the outer skin like poly styrene or kingspan celotex carbon coated balls even but the big big big difference is that the outer skin usually is not thermally conductive. They also do commercial outer skins that have insulation formed on them even though they are metal,,, that`s interesting.Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,,,,Loving this one :mrgreen:
