should i get red9 wishbone or thaus spindles?

[bluenose]

I was planning on going for thaus drop spindles but I'm stuck in two minds whether it's worth investing some extra and going for the red9 wishbone kit setup?

I did a search and found some moaning about the red9 kit but they're really old threads so the issues might have been resolved by now.

my expectation for the red9 kit at that price is that it would be a perfect fit without fettling and be awesome to drive!!

safety is number 1 with the kids in the bus, bits concerning me are the flipped ball joint with no form of lock ring like the thaus ones, looking at the setup I think the bottom ball joint which is flipped would be subject to the majority of forces. Also the low bevel box being exposed looks like it could be taken out by a stray badger.

I'll phone them when I get a min but wanted some general opinion.

 

[AndyO]

Chatted to them at a show a couple of times and seemed to know there stuff. It's allot up front, but in my opinion worth the money (ring and pinion for starters). Have I got the same kit? no. Do I wish that I did - yep! After popping on drop spindles, new shocks (twice!) trying to get camber and tracking right etc etc, I would certainly give it more consideration. - hope that helps!

 

[neilswheels]

I know people run red9 stuff for all kinds of reasons, better brakes, i think they might be adjustable? etc, but I went with thaus spindles. Both front ends are independent suspension, and my bay rides as sweet as with thaus spindles. I had the same reservations about the flipping thing, but he's had loads of satisfied customers and busses that have done thousands of miles, plus two other comapnies do there own versions of the same thing. Having fitted, the only issue I have with them is that two of the nylocs on I think the bottom bj, dont actually get to the nylic bit. I'm going to look into getting a thinner nyloc nut, and this will sort that out. If you want bigger brakes, tho I cant see the need in a stock bus, there are plenty of big break kits out there.
There is another company doing 2.5 inch dropped spindles that dont require bj flipping, and aren't welded, i think Heritage do them

Thats my thoughts on it.

 

[bluenose]

Chatted to them at a show a couple of times and seemed to know there stuff. It's allot up front, but in my opinion worth the money (ring and pinion for starters). Have I got the same kit? no. Do I wish that I did - yep! After popping on drop spindles, new shocks (twice!) trying to get camber and tracking right etc etc, I would certainly give it more consideration. - hope that helps!

yea that's some help mate, part of this is I want to avoid the cost of adding drop spindles then changing again in the future.

The pro's of the spindles are I can see they have done the destructive testing and they're not coming apart. Although I worry that I would be dependant on thaus or t2d to change ball joints in the future, no normal garage could do it with that ring thing.

I read a failure story on one of the forums with the bevel box with the red9. I've had ball joint failure before and it's not pleasant. I would like to have seen it destructively tested to fill me with confidence

 

[bluenose]

I know people run red9 stuff for all kinds of reasons, better brakes, i think they might be adjustable? etc, but I went with thaus spindles. Both front ends are independent suspension, and my bay rides as sweet as with thaus spindles. I had the same reservations about the flipping thing, but he's had loads of satisfied customers and busses that have done thousands of miles, plus two other comapnies do there own versions of the same thing. Having fitted, the only issue I have with them is that two of the nylocs on I think the bottom bj, dont actually get to the nylic bit. I'm going to look into getting a thinner nyloc nut, and this will sort that out. If you want bigger brakes, tho I cant see the need in a stock bus, there are plenty of big break kits out there.
There is another company doing 2.5 inch dropped spindles that dont require bj flipping, and aren't welded, i think Heritage do them

Thats my thoughts on it.

yea I have no reservations about the ball joints popping on the thaus setup. I'm thinking red9 because the steering is a bit wanky on the bus anyway, over 30mph it is like steering a boat. I probably just need to give it some adjustment but I've noted the cost and availability of steering boxes and was thinking the R & P might be a good upgrade.

I don't think you should go for a thinner nut mate. The strength of the nut will come from the number of threads engaged, the nylon is just for anti vibration unscrewing if it comes loose. I think I would just Loctite it and make sure it tight as fuk!

 

[sharman]

Both quality items. I had the same dilemma, but went with thaus purely on cost. Although this was short lived when I found that fitting the dropped spindles to my standard beam caused my tyres to rub on my arches due to standard beam and alloy wheel offset issues, so beware. I've since sold the thaus dropped spindles and coilovers and gone for Creative narrowed adjustable beam. One word: Quality . Couldn't warrant the expense of Red9 as I had a perfectly good steering box, plus they'd recently increased the price by around £200.

My advice is if you've got the wonga and your steering box is worn, go for red 9. If you're on a budget and want mild lowering go for Creative. The benefit over thaus is that for the same price you get a new beam.

Another thing to consider is a combo of creative adjustable beam and dropped spindles if you want to go über low.

Can't fault the service from Creative, and will be buying my rear adjustable springplates from them soon. Really helpful and know their stuff. Word of caution, my personal experience of thaus was a little stressful due to chasing parts I'd paid for although it all got sorted in the end.

Decisions decisions! Good luck and regardless of other comments and mine included, it's your choice mate!!

 

[Haveacamper]

I have been considering this option for a couple of years myself.

Can not believe that the red9 has gone up in price again... i believe the original Bay window price was around the 1695 mark, then it went up to 1895 and now its gone up to 2095...

does anyone know whether they have improved the porduct and brought out different versions? I was under the impression that they had made changes to their original released design, but dont kow if they have improved it further???

23% price increase from 1695 to 2095!

 

[Graham L]

The transporterhaus dropped spindles are based on a design that has been around for years in Europe with no failures that I am aware of, the flipped ball joints are locked in by a retaining ring so can't come out and if they do need replacing in the future get transporterhaus to do it.

As far as I'm aware Alex still makes all the dropped spindles that are made in the uk and supplies T2D so don't pay extra for a name, go direct or go to cool air who stock the products.

Having run the dropped spindles in the past you do need to factor in a good set of new coil over dampers (£240) and a new set of front tyres as you will rub the arches.

In terms of ride whilst it's a backward step a good KnL set up will give you a better ride than ball joint dropped spindles but you are looking at over £2k if someone does it for you.

 

[Bay-low71]

This was the biggest dilemma & decision of my entire build.
Red 9, Creative, Dogback, Custom build by Napstok Customs, Transporthaus, T2d's even the air solution!!

I have gone down the Red 9 route. After months of changing my mind. I'm on my second steering box which is boarder line MOT failure. Running a cut turned and welded front beam, not the best, it was fun across the old severn bridge in the wind. That'll be the first test for the red 9.

As a package for me it solved multiple issues. Ride quality, drive quality, braking improvements, steering improvements. Granted it's not the cheapest solution, hoping it's the final solution that will compliment my bus during its new lease of life.

I'm taking delivery today hopefully fitting this weekend.
Simon from Red 9 is very good answered all my queries , I've also heard nothing but good things about his customer aftercare etc.
Only negative I found was a customer having issues fitting an original brake servo to the beam.

Good luck with your decision
As mentioned. Your bus, your rules. Ben

 

[Mr Brightside]

Hello,

I also looked at all of the options, spoke to lots & lots of people & chose the RED9 route based upon many things :

Modern vehicle design
Modern brakes
Servo
Adjustabiity
Technical Support (you are buying from the manufacturer not some "middle man")

Cost is a consideration, but when you factor in std disc brakes etc. its not as high as it first seems

Mine has been fitted for nearly 3 years now, the only issues I have had are:

Uneven tyre wear caused by a Tyre depot that did not know how to use the camber settings I gave them
Ball Joint Rubbers torn (caused by the tyre depot above tearing them when they adjusted the camber nuts)

Simon has been excellent with his customer support & I would recommend the system as it has transformed how the bus drives.

I have recommended them to other people (a Dutch work colleague takes delvery of his Red9 in 2 weeks)

Red9 no longer rely on the supply of bevel boxes, they have designed & made their own transfer box which sits much higher & is less prone to damage (although I never caught mine)

See below for how I fitted mine (less than a day single handed from drive in to drive out)

http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26453&start=109

 

[creationblue]

I went Red9, had mine for 3 years now. Bevel box was a compromise on the early units but Simon sent me the updated one FOC. Not had any issues, and it allows me to choose my tyres based on what I want, not what will fit in the arches as its fully adjustable. The fact I now have modern steering was just a bonus when I was weighing up the options.

Good luck with your choice

 

[sharman]

Forgot to mention, I already had servo front discs as standard on my 71 which was also a deciding factor.

 

[Clem]

I went the dropped spindles route , one benefit of this approach is the ability to do it in stages. You can get the spindles and set all that up, change the beam at a later date, upgrade shocks along the way etc etc. Going Red9 or split beam will mean an 'all in one go' approach which hits the wallet a fair bit harder.

 

[Krim]

I know people run red9 stuff for all kinds of reasons, better brakes, i think they might be adjustable? etc, but I went with thaus spindles. Both front ends are independent suspension, and my bay rides as sweet as with thaus spindles. I had the same reservations about the flipping thing, but he's had loads of satisfied customers and busses that have done thousands of miles, plus two other comapnies do there own versions of the same thing. Having fitted, the only issue I have with them is that two of the nylocs on I think the bottom bj, dont actually get to the nylic bit. I'm going to look into getting a thinner nyloc nut, and this will sort that out. If you want bigger brakes, tho I cant see the need in a stock bus, there are plenty of big break kits out there.
There is another company doing 2.5 inch dropped spindles that dont require bj flipping, and aren't welded, i think Heritage do them

Thats my thoughts on it.

Could be a stupid thing to say, but could you not wind the nuts on backwards so the nylon bit goes on first??

S.

 

[neilswheels]

Good point aboutthreads and loctite, tho not sure MOT man would see that.

As for tyre changing and coilovers. i'm running neither on mine, stock 14 inch tyres and stock length KYB's runs grat. As mines a US 71, i have servo and discs.

 

[r73]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons - do any of these after market products ie Red9 wishbone or Transporterhaus Flipped Spindles have any type of TUV approval?
I know nothing about this but seemed to think that you paid a bit extra to companies like CSP cos they had this testing done?
What about insurance implications of bolting on a complete aftermarket front end or flipped spindles??

I know Creative Engineering undertake extensive testing of their products as well.

With guys like Graham at MEB offering a late bay steering box conversion I'd go the K&L route if I wanted it lower than 3" cos its tried and tested otherwise stick to adjusters and dont lower the balljoints more than 3" max 8)

Mine is stock - I like driving over bumps, curbs, fields, beach carparks, dirt tracks etc. To be limited on where I could go in my bus would be an infringment of my freedom :?

 

[Bundy]

Mine is stock - I like driving over bumps, curbs, fields, beach carparks, dirt tracks etc. To be limited on where I could go in my bus would be an infringment of my freedom :?

I must say I'd like a little more clearance at times, but my garage roof height says otherwise!

I have the Red9 wishbone setup and love it. Yes it's a dear do, but ticks all the boxes in one and makes the drive so much nicer. Simon's aftercare service is second to none too.

 

[bluenose]

thanks everyone some really helpful comments.

I'm not really fussed about approvals like TUV, the entire vehicle wouldn't pass safety standards today anyway, as long as the products fit for purpose and safe that's good enough for me.

I think I will have a chat to red9 and probably go for that. I think it wins for me as its got the adjustability factor which the spindles won't give me without also buying a adjustable beam then i'll be bordering on the cost of red9 kit anyway.

I've found with all my busses the steering is uncomfortably heavy when carrying 4 or 5 passengers. I'm presuming the steering rack conversion will make it much more pleasent when fully loaded

 

[r73]

If you want lighter steering then put everyone in the back!!
I'm not running red9 or anyone else's products down - but given the failure threads that crop up every now and then I just think consideration should be given.
After all if Red9's 'bevel box' had been thoroughly tested before manufacture they wouldn't have to have changed it
Realistically, how often are you going to adjust the whole front end up and down? Mostly this means new tyres and tracking again as well.
I'm just jealous cos I can't afford to buy any nice shiny stuff anyway :lol:

I think this is the best forum around and what good would it be without opinions.
The fact that there's so many different buses out there is great.
Each to their own

 

[creationblue]

Realistically, how often are you going to adjust the whole front end up and down?

:msn4: