Too low (urgent front suspension woes)

[Clem]

Some background info that may help?

http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22829&p=203860#p203860" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[gvee]

Cheers Clem. Had that bookmarked at some point and couldn't for the life of me find it!

 

[Clem]

I remember Jools (stagger lee) building this back when we were all on kamperchat. He was a real pioneer and was diy'ing this stuff as it wasn't available. A real clever and cool guy ahead of his time, you may look at it now and it seems dated but its all relative . He was a giant too, and towered above his bus

 

[sparkywig]

I remember Jools (stagger lee) building this back when we were all on kamperchat. He was a real pioneer and was diy'ing this stuff as it wasn't available. A real clever and cool guy ahead of his time, you may look at it now and it seems dated but its all relative . He was a giant too, and towered above his bus

He was rather large, wasn't he.
He would never sell me another set of those spindles....

 

[gvee]

Well time has certainly proved that his DIY job on the spindles are definitely tough enough! Found another thread by him about it that suggests they've been running about 10 years strong.

Is he still in the VW scene? Will drop him a PM Based on the sale thread he might not be far from me if he's still in this part of the world.

 

[Clem]

I think he was running a Citreon DS last I knew 8)

 

[Zcat7]

I run my ARB upside down and on top of the lower trailing arms on my 72 crosser but had to remove all traces of the bump stop mounts for clearance. It passes around the beam end plates fine.
Before I did this it would scrape on the road way too often.

 

[gvee]

Don't suppose you've got any photos of the fitting?

 

[Zcat7]

Will take some in the next couple of days and post them up.

 

[neilswheels]

Your beam's definitely been lowered. Those trailing arms should be pointing downwards if it was stock, yours appear to be horizontal or maybe slightly up past horizontal. There's plenty of stock beams out there if you want to run the TH spindles, but it sounds like you've gone back to your old setup and are now sorted. Be interesting to see those ARB pics, i've yet to put mine back on.

 

[Zcat7]

I just remembered, while messing around under my bus, that 6 months ago I promised some pictures of my flipped ARB sitting on top of the lower trailing arms. Better late than never? Sorry!

I've had not a single scrape since doing this and in fact have so much more suspension travel! (as the ARB doesn't hit the floor and end the travel for you). I don't like the feel of a bus without the front ARB, way too much roll for my liking and this is the answer.

 

[*Sam*]

Interestingly when I looked at some French slammer images I noticed that they mount the ARB like you have.
I agree also that a bus without an ARB really doesn't Handel great, it can be improved by narrowing the beam but atill no substitute for the ARM.
I now need to get a -3" narrowed ARB made up !

 

[Graham L]

Interestingly when I looked at some French slammer images I noticed that they mount the ARB like you have.
I agree also that a bus without an ARB really doesn't Handel great, it can be improved by narrowing the beam but atill no substitute for the ARM.
I now need to get a -3" narrowed ARB made up !

French slammer beams don't come with an ARB on them as they are narrowed and no one makes a narrowed ARB. Haven't run an ARB on any of my lowered buses and never had a problem with handling as lowered buses don't roll in the same way as stock buses.

 

[Tofufi]

Interestingly when I looked at some French slammer images I noticed that they mount the ARB like you have.
I agree also that a bus without an ARB really doesn't Handel great, it can be improved by narrowing the beam but atill no substitute for the ARM.
I now need to get a -3" narrowed ARB made up !

French slammer beams don't come with an ARB on them as they are narrowed and no one makes a narrowed ARB. Haven't run an ARB on any of my lowered buses and never had a problem with handling as lowered buses don't roll in the same way as stock buses.

My bus with a 4" narrowed beam rolls a lot less on turn-in now I've fitted an anti-roll bar. I'd recommend running one

 

[*Sam*]

French slammer beams don't come with an ARB on them as they are narrowed and no one makes a narrowed ARB. Haven't run an ARB on any of my lowered buses and never had a problem with handling as lowered buses don't roll in the same way as stock buses.[/quote]

Apologies Graham I haven't been very clear, it was an advert for a bus that was built with their spindles, I just happened to notice it and thought It was a good idea.

My bus (as this is the only narrowed bus I have driven) would defiantly benefit from an ARB, it would stiffen the front end and make feel a little more positive.
Perhaps being a pop top the extra weight effects it.

 

[*Sam*]

My bus with a 4" narrowed beam rolls a lot less on turn-in now I've fitted an anti-roll bar. I'd recommend running one [/quote]

Did you manufacture the roll bar your self ? I would really like to fit one.

 

[sparkywig]

Cut a section out of yours, slide a piece of tight fitting tube over one piece, chamfer the ends and weld together, and then weld the tube over the joint to strengthen it.

 

[*Sam*]

I did think of that but wasn't sure that it would take the stress of continually twisting, but if it's a proven method then......

 

[Zcat7]

I think there are 2 things to consider when mooting the fitment of a front ARB - the comfort factor (as in less body sway) and the performance factor.

I used to race cars (Caterhams mainly) and ARB thickness along with front/rear configurations are extremely important to setting up the car's handling. The team would routinely change the bar thickness and settings depending on the track we were racing at and the weather conditions. I don't really think that this applies too much to a bus though! :lol: So primarily I would say it comes down to ride comfort and how much body roll you want to put up with.

For what it's worth and those that are interested, fitting a front ARB alone (as in most buses unless an aftermarket rear ARB is installed) will introduce a tendency toward understeer; a desirable state in a road vehicle as it encourages the average driver to back off the throttle when you exceed the cars handling limits (ie the car starts to carry straight on) and backing off in turn helps to correct the understeer condition. If a car starts to oversteer then the opposite is true, i.e. snapping off the throttle is most likely going to increase the tail slide, much like yanking up the handbrake (as I'm sure we all did in car parks in our teens :mrgreen: ). Hence average road cars are not set set up for pin sharp turn in (i.e heavy rear ARB, light or no front ARB).

So in summary, a bus with the front ARB removed is likely to turn in better and have more of a tendancy (by degrees...) toward oversteer than with it fitted. It will however tend to have better handling in the wet as a "softer" body (i.e more roll) loads the tyres more gently and therefore is less likely to cause them to break traction in the wet. So you are less likely to understeer in the wet with no front ARB but your tail might start coming round if you hit a corner hard in the rain and all that arse weight will take some catching!

As Graham says, lower buses will tend to roll less and how low will again dictate how much and there are a hundred other factors to consider when looking at handling characteristics. I doubt anyone here is going to be tuning their chassis for track day handling but a little theory is always useful I find!

 

[Tofufi]

Cut a section out of yours, slide a piece of tight fitting tube over one piece, chamfer the ends and weld together, and then weld the tube over the joint to strengthen it.

I did think of that but wasn't sure that it would take the stress of continually twisting, but if it's a proven method then......

It's what I did. In addition, I drilled holes through the tight fitting tube and plug welded it, and I cut the ARB at 45 degrees to lengthen the join, so it's very unlikely to come apart.

It's been on my bus a couple of years without a problem, although I keep an eye on it as you're not *meant* to weld spring steel.

Be aware that welded torsion bars should fail an MOT, so an over-enthusiastic MOT tester may try to fail it (although I'd argue against it as the ARB is not the suspension torsion bar).

I take no responsibility for (consequences of) anyone making their own