Front tinware: essential or not?

[KevH]

I am missing a section of front tinware and plan to replace it over winter on the basis that VW thought it was essential to seal the top of the engine bay from the bottom. I understand that argument and it often gets repeated in the forum. However...

...is it has been suggested to me that there is an argument for leaving this bit of tin out to aide the airflow when the bus is in motion? I had not even thought of that. :?:

What do you think?

 

[aogrady]

Hi,

You mean the bit at the gearbox end where the rubber seal goes around? I would have though that as you said, the idea is that the engine has the cold zone at the top, hot zone underneath, all sealed (well as best as possible) so there is a cooler supply of air available to the fan. They ran these busses all over the world, in far higher temperature places than the UK. Think it was probably a selling point, no overheating, no water.

They wouldn't spend time in R+D making it that way, for people not to fit them 'cos they thought it was better, same goes for stats and flaps....If it ran cooler and more reliable, then, from a warrenty claim point, they wouldn't fit them if it was better, and costing money to fit parts they aren't needed to cool things.

Cheers,

Alistair

 

[BrotherNumberOne]

^^whs

It's vital. You might get away with it for a bit, particularly if you are only driving it in cold weather and not stopping at all, but any traffic jam situation or town driving will quickly overheat the engine. As above, manufacturers like VW don't waste money on things like seals and tinware unless it's absolutely needed.

 

[KevH]

Well, that is exactly what I have always thought, and I maybe have 'gotten away with it' so far.

Not having the space or wit to tackle this myself, I spoke to my local trusted VW expert, who runs his own bus without the front tinware (yeah, the bit above the gearbox) and who put the thought of sticking without it in my mind.

I do think and agree that if VW designed it this way it must be for a purpose, but then again VW did not fit twin carbs, dropped spindles, etc. so that argument is getting a bit weak I reckon.

So, my thoughts are to go ahead and have it replaced...peace of mind if nothing else.

 

[aogrady]

Well, that is exactly what I have always thought, and I maybe have 'gotten away with it' so far.

Not having the space or wit to tackle this myself, I spoke to my local trusted VW expert, who runs his own bus without the front tinware (yeah, the bit above the gearbox) and who put the thought of sticking without it in my mind.

I do think and agree that if VW designed it this way it must be for a purpose, but then again VW did not fit twin carbs, dropped spindles, etc. so that argument is getting a bit weak I reckon.

So, my thoughts are to go ahead and have it replaced...peace of mind if nothing else.

Porsche fitted twin carbs on the 356 which is near as damit a normal VW air-cooled lump, and drop spindles is only for none stock applications, i.e if you want your bus lower....

The bean counters in the accounts department would have weighed up the pros and cons of the tinware, cost V warrenty jobs V service life. If you want to see what happens when more extreme corners are cut, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And when bean counters at Ford, knowing a design flaw, decided it was cheaper to deal with the lawsuits and handle it out of court rather than recall and fix the problem ($11 on each car)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Fuel_tank_defect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers!

Alistair

(One day, you know this'll be the question in a pub quiz, my GF moans at the amount of "junk" info in my head.....)

 

[Tofufi]

VW did not fit twin carbs,

They did fit twin carbs to some South African Beetles, Type 3s, and later Type 4 engined vans.

It was probably a cost (and perhaps robustness/reliability) decision.

 

[KevH]

Thanks lads...that is helpful.

I was hoping that somebody who runs their bus without the front tinware might share their thoughts but it seems that everybody (really?) has it in place. Seems we all adhere to the 'VW designed it that way' stance :lol: .

As I say, I'll have the tin fitted, though I am still not totally convinced it is essential, as I have had no overheating problems so far (3000 plus miles done this year).

Anybody out there run without it?

 

[r73]

My bus came over from the states with a beetle front tin fitted (gap at top) I ran it for a bit but then got the weld on section of someone off here ( can't remember who) fitted.
I can t see the point in running without out it really.

 

[Trikky2]

but then again VW did not fit twin carbs, dropped spindles, etc. so that argument is getting a bit weak I reckon.

Faulty reasoning / poor logic.

You are confusing an improvement like twin carbs (that cost more) with something removed like tinware (which costs less)

As for dropped spindles being an improvement - maybe for a weekend show off toy or fashion statement (which most of them probably are these days) but back when these vehicles were doing the jobs they were designed for, dropped spindles would not have been an improvement.

 

[Haveacamper]

seems like the question is being asked hoping for an answer..."dont worry about it you dont need it"

its simple...the engine efficiency is a result of the temperature gradient between the hot and cold zone of the engine.

Its certain that more hot air will rise into your engine bay when stationary if its open. This will make your engine run hotter as this hot air is then re-circulated over the heads by the fan. SIMPLE HEATEXCHANGER PRINCIPALS. The result may not manifest itself in blowing up your engine, but in more subtle ways like quicker wear of engine parts operating at hotter temperatures, quicker degredation of oil, even lower fuel economy around town.

As for getting more air into the engine bay when driving, I cant imagine you would get masses of air into the engine bay unless its ducted. after all you have things like a gearbox, A-arms, chassis rails all lower that this tinware that is blocking/disturbing air flow.... a reason why people who fit radiators for watercooled conversions make use of ducting....

The air vents in your rear quarter panels will provide sufficient air to cool...FACT!

If they didnt then VW would have changed the design like they did on the latebay when they made the air vents larger to accommodate a larger, more powerful engine that required more cooling capacity.

NaFe

 

[Rippers]

Mine had it missing when I got the van, so I replaced it.. OG bits are bloody dear now I picked up a spare recently.. maybe I'll retire on it one day :lol:

 

[KevH]

seems like the question is being asked hoping for an answer..."dont worry about it you dont need it"

No, not at all NaFe, as I can fully see the argument FOR it. The idea of running WITHOUT it was suggested by my local garage, who I have the utmost faith in as a rule. So, knowing that the overwhelming logic is FOR, I wanted to test this alternative view in the forum, and perhaps unearth a silent minority view. From what I am hearing though, the view is pretty overwhelming that the full tinware is absolutely essential (as anticipated), which is where I began my discussion with my local garage :roll: .

Trikky - I was trying (badly, I agree) to argue that we tend to brandish the 'VW designed it that way for a purpose' logic inappropriately sometimes as many buses are now far from the stock VW design. You saw through the argument...damn .

Now to find the right piece at the right price...thanks for the cost warning Rippers .

Thanks again lads...much appreciated.

 

[r73]

Here ya go bud.
http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5290" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[gvee]

Might be cheaper to source Beetle front tinware and an extension: http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18431" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Trikky2]

Trikky - I was trying (badly, I agree) to argue that we tend to brandish the 'VW designed it that way for a purpose' logic inappropriately sometimes as many buses are now far from the stock VW design. You saw through the argument...damn .

Now to find the right piece at the right price...thanks for the cost warning Rippers .

Thanks again lads...much appreciated.

:lol: no probs mate. Your right that there are improvements that can be made. These vehicles, like many others, were built down to a price so if your willing to spend money there are going to be things you can upgrade (just like on most vehicles).

Unfortunately it is not possible to improve things by leaving stuff off (other than reducing weight.

I drove my bus once with no windows, it was a lot lighter but it wasn't very pleasant. :lol:

The bit you need is not easy to find and quite pricy but there is another solution.
There's a guy on here who makes a tinware panel you attach to the equivalent beetle tin (which are easy to come by). Have a look at this thread http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18431" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Ps. Just saw the post above Doh! :lol:

 

[KevH]

Just the job, thanks Trikky, r73 and gvee. Not sure how I missed that recent thread, but I obviously did .

 

[r73]

I had an old beetle tin lying about and the extension piece fit perfect
I'm surprised a VW specialist is advising you run without complete tinware :roll:

 

[Toad]

Simple answer - Totally Crucial to having a happy engine

 

[Watty]

I just replaced my tinware with after market stuff for my 71 moonraker. via custom and commercial. once fitted my mechanic pointed out the two inch gap at the top either side of my gearbox. Stupid, stupid tinware. Be carefully what you order. Not sure what I should do now either? Bother

 

[jonboylaw]

It also stops the road grind and crap getting in the engine bay.


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