I have known about this for a while but didn't act upon it because they were not being produced for sale in the us and quantities were low..
The DTM design is intellectual property belonging to my company. I will take the action required to protect it. Patents were not necessary when I shut down the last DTM replication effort. The DTM is patent pending.
Thanks for the heads up. I'll take care of this.
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craigman
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PostPosted: Yesterday 11:56 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
I have one of Jakes DTM's, V2, and the vains inside don't look like that one. I also wonder if is a true "down the middle" shroud. I bet it's strait across like a stock type 1 shroud.
I don't care if sold for a couple of hundred dollars, i'd still buy Jakes DTM. I know the quality is much better and proven to work.
But that's just me..
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Merlin
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PostPosted: Today 12:30 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
'IMPI' is the name Armand uses for his VW business, not just the shroud.
An 'Impi' is a Zulu warrior.
I FW'ed this link to Armand. He's a buy chap, so is reply might be a bit delayed.
To the best of my knowledge, Jake and Armand have corresponded about this, a long time ago, but I prefer to speak only for myself on the subject. Smile
Nic.
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adriaan pienaar
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PostPosted: Today 6:36 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
'n Boer maak 'n Plan
We have a traditional saying in my home language, Afrikaans, that says 'n Boer maak 'n plan. Literally it means 'A farmer will make a plan' but right here in our country it has a deeper meaning, relating to the natural ability of a South African (regardless of race, sex or religion) to survive his circumstances, take what little resources are available, make a success of whatever he does and reach the end goal with little effort. This has been proven time and time again - take our arms embargo, for example, a few decades ago. Due to the political turmoil at the time we were forced in a situation where we simply had to do something to protect the borders of our fair country, and the end result was an arsenal of military equipment that is still regarded to be the best in the world - firearms, aircraft, armoured vehicles - you name it, developed on home turf.
Guru
I've known Armand, who's brainchild was this very same controversial IMPI kit, personally for many years now. I have yet to meet a more intellectual, knowledgable and experienced VW guru in South Africa with the same honesty and integrity. I specifically use the word guru - which is defined as a person who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a given area, and uses it to guide others because the whole air cooled VW phenomenon has always been a hobby, and just that to him. To call Armand (who we all know as IMPI) a VW mechanic or businessman would be wrong. I am more thinking in terms of the greatest VW enthusiast I have ever met.
What's in a name?
Glenn wrote:
IMPI, even the name is a rip off. Too funny, uh I mean stupid.
As Merlin said in a previous post, an Impi is traditional Zulu warrior, better definded as:
Quote:
an isiZulu word for any armed body of men. However, in English it is often used to refer to a Zulu regiment, which is called an ibutho in Zulu. The first impis were formed by Zulu king Shaka, who was then only the exiled illegitimate son of king Senzangakona, but already showing much prowess as a general in the army of Mthethwa king Dingiswayo in the Mthethwa-Ndwandwe war in the early 1810s.
Knowing Armand, and his excellent sense of humour, I can promise you that there were not intentions at any stage to piggyback on any existing company. I've actually heard several persons in the past correcting anyone who mistakingly referred to his hobby as 'EMPI'.
There many worse cases of 'Trademark abuse' in the industry, to name a few examples:
- Wolfsburg West - two W's with one top of each other
- GeeBee wheels, replicas of Porsche Gas Burners
- Torker wheels, replicas of the Torque Thrust
- Fuch wheels (it sure looks like FUCHS to me)
- Litre wheels (Porsche 2-liter lookalikes)
- MPI Campers (say 'MPI' out loud phonetically and what do yo hear?)
Above examples I got paging through a single copy of Volksworld - hang on, it even has a V and a W on top of each other on the cover!!
(By the way, I like model cars - my username on the Forum http://www.earlybay.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is HOTVWHEELS - please, Mattel - go ahead. Make my day. Sue me Twisted Evil )
Sticks and stones, Glenn. Sticks and stones Wink
The rise (and rise) of the IMPI (TM) dynasty
Armand is in an industry (read: his day job, not at all automotive related BTW) where he has a very senior appointement with more than 25 years' experience. IMPI is a hobby on the sideline that has turned into a very small garage-based industry that has an excellent reputation for quality, reliability and craftmanship. I had a standard Type 1 engine rebuilt a number of years ago by IMPI that gave me only joy and many thousands of kilometers of reliability.
Re-inventing the wheel?
If one would have to re-invent the wheel, would it still be round?
clearsurf2001 wrote:
Looks like an attempted knock-off of Jake's DTM shroud Shocked
I beg to differ. The IMPI conversion is NOT a copy of the DTM, for the simple reason that we do not have easy access to a wide range of VW performance parts in South Africa. The IMPI conversion was designed in an era when even the Internet was a rarity in our country, it is not 'new' as mentioned in the title of the post.
werka wrote:
Agree. I imagine it won't take long for Jake to see this thread, or he already may be aware.
Werka, to the best of my knowledge Jake Raby has been aware of the IMPI kit for a long time now.
Das Dragon wrote:
Nothing wrong with competition.
Indeed, Das Dragon. But I would hardly call an estimated 10 Type 4 IMPI conversions over the past 8 years 'competition' Confused
Das Dragon wrote:
So this new shroud has been deemed a ripoff and is on it's way to China for crap reproduction? He is openly posting pics of the interior of the shroud and not hiding what it looks like. If it is a direct ripoff and Jake has a patent that has been copied I agree with it being wrong. If it is different in design then there is nothing wrong with competion.
Das Dragon, I am starting to like you Laughing
metalchomper wrote:
I would bet it doesn't have the test and development time behind it as Jake's. I don't' believe someone would drop $6k on a hot T4 motor only to save $200 on a unproven shroud.
No - it doesn't. But what I have seen (and experienced, driving an IMPI-engined VW once), as well as knowing the maker, gives me the confidence to purchase an IMPI kit with my eyes closed. The after-'sales' support, is to say the least, phenomenal. As IMPI has stated himself before, he did however do a lot of research on the principles of cooling
tuna wrote:
Actually, Jake's known about IMPI for a LONG time. Here's a post over at the Type4rum at Shoptalk Forums about this conversion. It dates back to 2002.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4649&highlight=impi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tuna
Hello Tuna Wink
Jake Raby wrote:
I have known about this for a while but didn't act upon it because they were not being produced for sale in the us and quantities were low..
The DTM design is intellectual property belonging to my company. I will take the action required to protect it. Patents were not necessary when I shut down the last DTM replication effort. The DTM is patent pending.
Thanks for the heads up. I'll take care of this.
I am not in a position to reply to this statement, but I am sure any investigation into the IMPI kit will be welcomed, which leads me to the question: Has ANYONE ranting about the IMPI kit, ever seen one in person? (If you want to come and have a look, you are welcome! We have great beer in this country, and an active ACVW community. This is a serious invitation to all.)
Closing argument
- The IMPI conversion was designed to meet a demand to fit the Type 4 engine relatively cheaply to a stock Beetle, without major body modifications. It also had to look fairly 'stock', unlike the Porsche fan conversion
- The average South African climate, with high daytime temperatures, demands efficient cooling for a VW engine that is not negotiable
- Should an increased engine capacity be required, the Type 4 engine would provide an excellent platform for modification (common knowledge)
- Up to a stage, Type 4 engines were fairly common in South Africa
-There were thousands 411/412's and Type 4-engined Buses built locally from 1969 to the early 80's
- It hasn't been done before in South Africa, and Porsche altenators and fans are impossible to source here
This was posted by IMPI on Shoptalkforums in 2003:
Quote:
Hi all Thanks for all the interest out there.
I have not rely thought about making the shroud in great volumes yet as I am already working a 10 hour day it is difficult making enough time for the job. i got quotes for shipping to America but was horified to find that it will cost about $211 just for postage
The shroud would probably sell for round about $550 if any body should show interest. I do have a fiberglass contractor lined up and wiil use him for series production.
You could always visit me in South Africa see the big five and take it home as hand luggage.
Regards
Armand
As I said before, an open invitation..
I am by no means getting any gain by this post. I am merely coming up for a good friend, and trying to set the record straight!
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piledriver
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PostPosted: Today 6:59 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
It's NOT a direct knockoff. I remember those old threads...
Jake, did you ever get a chance to test IMPIs shroud vs the DTM?
It isn't a DTM, nor is it advertised as such.
IMPI DID borrow some good ideas.
It's pretty obvious he DIDN'T take molds off a DTM.
It's also pretty obvious IMPIs design isn't a direct copy of a DTM, and is quite different in some areas, IMPI obviously did at least some R&D of his own.
For better or worse, reverse engineering is not illegal, even in the USA .
This has ALWAYS been true.
No lawyer worth a dime would tell you different.
Patents and trademarks are the only protection
(...and trade secrets, as long as they stay a secret, reverse engineering IS allowed, spying is illegal, as in stealing and working from your actual design drawings)
In engineering, starting "with a man on base"...borrowing from proven designs... is strongly encouraged...
(perhaps mandatory, at least as a starting point)
See a Dodge Omni... I absolutely guarantee Chrysler has a Mk1 Golf in pieces with engineers all over it the day it shipped.(or before...)
Many of the parts are literally the same...
And many more are interchangable.
(Heck, they used VW motors for a couple years)
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Jake Raby
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PostPosted: Today 7:13 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
As long as the production numbers stay low and kits are not sold in the US or any of the countries where my largest numbers of customers for the DTM are I won't take things further..
However, the "confusing similarities" within the details of the IMPI system are enough to justify action on behalf, if and when I see fit.
I find Armand's indirect slams at my kit in his descriptions un-necessary and them alone are enough for me to take things to the next level.
Whether or not the unit is a direct copy or not, it does have some of the same characteristics that the DTM design is recognized for.
I prepare in advance for situations like this and will deal with them swiftly and aggressively when they occur.
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adriaan pienaar
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PostPosted: Today 7:35 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
Jake Raby wrote:
Whether or not the unit is a direct copy or not, it does have some of the same characteristics that the DTM design is recognized for.
With all due respect, Jake - what prevents VWAG from sueing your company for that exact same reason?
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PostPosted: Today 5:25 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
PS: Your opinion is out there to see for everyone,and so is your ignorance.
Your OPINION is hurting someone that doesn't deserve it!
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Today 5:26 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
You've stated you opinion, continuing to argue is a waste of time.
I will say that I did originally think the IMPI name was a copy of EMPI, but I have since learned differently.
Everything else stands as stated. Move on or get rolled over.
I'm not hurting anyone... you said that yourself.
Chris63 wrote:
"Even bad publicity is good publicity."
Chris
So this is good? (your words.. not mine).
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PostPosted: Today 5:30 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
So much for ignoring me.
Until you haven't seen the product,I will stand by IMPI.You owe the man an apology.
"Rolled over"!!?? Laughing
Your arrogance is astounding!!
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PostPosted: Today 5:32 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
Chris63 wrote:
So much for ignoring me.
Until you haven't seen the product,I will stand by IMPI.You owe the man an apology.
"Rolled over"!!?? Laughing
Your arrogance is astounding!!
I'm sorry you're an asshole.
And i'm sorry I said IF it is a ripoff that's for the courts to decide. I never said it WAS.
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PostPosted: Today 5:36 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
Glenn wrote:
I'm sorry you're an asshole.
And i'm sorry I said IF it is a ripoff that's for the courts to decide. I never said it was.
Case and point!
Once again you you have proven to be someone of no integrity.
Name calling seems to be "your thing".
Assholes are usefull,idiots are a waste of time!
I'm moving on,which rock was yours again...?
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PostPosted: Today 5:42 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
I think the later half of this thread could be deleted.
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PostPosted: Today 6:12 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
Be my guest.
I said what I had to say.
IMPI,if you read this,keep up the good work.
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Jake Raby
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PostPosted: Today 6:19 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
Quote:
have always looked at The Samba as one of the authorities in Aircooled.But it seems I have been wrong.It is a sad day when someone like Jake actually is aware and knows the IMPI shroud and still says this.Maybe you're scared that someone can do better job.And even if he did start producing them in larger numbers and offered them for sale in the US,there won't be much you will be able to do about it.It will be merely another product that does the same,if not a better job at a better price.
Ok...
You asked for it...
I'll be turning this over to Legal today.
Thanks for the reminder that I should have done it long ago.
Smart ass comments don't get anywhere with me.
Gloves are off, tell Armand to get ready for a trip to Georgia that he'll be paying for and it won't be a Vacation.
Once upon a time armand admitted that he purchased a DTM shroud from Joe Locicero to study for the development of his unit. That piece of evidence is held in my data base and will be used as "Exhibit A"..
Chris should have kept his damn mouth shut.
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Merlin
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PostPosted: Today 6:46 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
Jake Raby wrote:
Quote:
have always looked at The Samba as one of the authorities in Aircooled.But it seems I have been wrong.It is a sad day when someone like Jake actually is aware and knows the IMPI shroud and still says this.Maybe you're scared that someone can do better job.And even if he did start producing them in larger numbers and offered them for sale in the US,there won't be much you will be able to do about it.It will be merely another product that does the same,if not a better job at a better price.
Ok...
You asked for it...
I'll be turning this over to Legal today.
Thanks for the reminder that I should have done it long ago.
Smart ass comments don't get anywhere with me.
Gloves are off, tell Armand to get ready for a trip to Georgia that he'll be paying for and it won't be a Vacation.
Once upon a time armand admitted that he purchased a DTM shroud from Joe Locicero to study for the development of his unit. That piece of evidence is held in my data base and will be used as "Exhibit A"..
Chris should have kept his damn mouth shut.
I'm no Legal Eagle, but what in Chris' quote, as posted by Jake above, holds any value in a legal view? I'm sure there are others here who are just as curious as I about this. Smile
In addition, how does legally trying individual 'B' for something that individial 'A' did or said, hold any substance?
Lastly, how exactly does the Law work with regards to international cases, global copyrights and patents, and public comments, with reference to free speech and ISP restrictions?
Just some thoughts.
Regards, N.
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Luftgekült
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PostPosted: Today 6:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
Jake,
I bet you purchased every single shroud in the market, looked at it, studied it, and made your own product, and nobody is taking you to the courts.
His desing is definitely different from yours. As different as a TVI cooling system can be from anyother. You are not the only one who can make TIV shrouds, are you?
Leave that southafrican guy alone with his researches. Save the lawyers money, and use it in developing.
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Jake Raby
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PostPosted: Today 6:56 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report this post to Moderator/Admin.
Chris' post was provocative and un-necessary. It simply was the final straw needed for me to be transformed from a nice guy that was willing to allow a "confusingly similar" component be produced in another country, for another market into someone that will protect his intellectual property no matter the cost.
The Samba is not a place for legal conversation. The goings on that will follow this thread are now between Armand and the legal counsel representing my company.
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