Suspension and steering advice.....

[bernie]

Hi guys,
I've owned and enjoyed my first earlybay for a year now and it's about time to start improvements.
It's a 68 running slightly lowered on standard 14inch steels, standard width balljoint beam on adjusters, standard spindles, drum brakes and no anti-roll bar.
Basically I'm new to all this and learning as I go. I'm 6ft4 and 19 stone so not wanting to go too low but really want to improve the handling as the ride is a bit wobbly and being lhd it often feels like there is a lot of body roll as sitting in the gutter hitting all the pot holes!..... so....
I was informed that dropped spindles would help with suspension travel but to fit to the 68 would increase the beam by 10mm each side and usually only work with discs.... therefore is it best to upgrade the front brakes too along with spindles? (disc conversion seems like a load of money at nearly a grand! Is it worth it!)
Next question, will running a narrowed beam, say 2 inch make my roll issue worse?
Should I put on an anti roll bar?
Also there is a load of play in my steering which seems to be the steering box. Any advice on where to get it refurbed as can't get new ones?
Any opinions welcome. I don't have much budget, £500 - £1000 total so wondering what to spend on first.
Cheers

 

[ozziedog]

Yes ,no , no no yes and maybe, :lol:
Get your anti roll bar on for the first thing, as that will stop a little bit of wobble for hardly any cost and go for the extra tough rubbers. Beam on adjusters is great, and you`ll hardly notice any difference with dropped spindles maybe a half inch or so, from what you have now. There are several types of dropped spindles , the reversed ball joint type ala Transporterhaus will not increase your track one Iota but the welded up type will increase your track. If you are partially lowered and with the best will in the world you ain`t gonna get much better with the budget you got. Plus me and the bruv both in the front and thats two big dudes,will muller my suspension if I run as low as I could , so I had to get realistic or I don`t got no tyres left. If you got a bit of wobble or wander you could try stiffening it up will some custom coil overs and they will see off most of your budget I`m afraid. When you lower, you decrease the amount of suspension travel you have, you`ve already done that , yes you can spend another five or six hundred on T Haus spindles to get a half inch lower than you already are then spend four and a half on custom shocks and maybe some more for some lower profile tyres, but every inch you go lower on tyres in real life is almost half an inch. To get any lower than half an inch more than you have now, you have gotto start thinking about tubbing the arches under the front seats and that ain`t gonna be cheap. Tyre wobble is an issue and it usually means that the tyres aint commercial rated so they is soft in the side walls so that could be another issue.

Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Unlimited budget is another ball game :mrgreen:

 

[chad]

Mine's standard apart from front and rear anti-roll bars.

I'm no lightweight but find the ride and handling fine.

I'd fit these first, after checking my shock absorbers and the rest of the suspension is in good nick.

Tyres can make a difference as well, especially if they're too low a load rating.

Regarding the steering box Graham of Midland Early Bay on here does them, I'd check the coupler first though as there's been a lot of crap ones sold.

 

[Moseley]

To add to what has been said above, depending on how low you are already, all the dropped spindles are going to achieve is to allow you to run lower without hitting the limits of your ball joints. If you are at a height where this isn't happening, I wouldn't bother contemplating fitting them as they introduce more problems when keeping standard 14" wheels (ask me how I know!)

Narrowed beams are really only required if your tyres are hitting the outer, lower parts of the arches - they just allow you to gain a bit of extra travel at the point of the wheel arch where there is most clearance between tyre and arch.

As has been said, with your budget, dropped spindles and a narrowed beam are not going to be achievable, even if you do all the narrowing and cutting of leaves / track arms yourself. I'd use the money on some decent shocks and an anti-roll bar personally.

Also, the dropped spindles / narrowed beam can be purchased for either drums or discs, you're not forced to swap to discs when you fit them.


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[bernie]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the advice, much appreciated.

In my initial post I forgot to mention I am happy with current ride height/subtle drop just trying to improve handling. Therefore I will go ahead and try the anti-roll bar and up-rated shocks as suggested to see if that makes a difference first.

I was looking at drop spindles as I was told that my bump stops had been cut off so I was probably at the bottom of the adjusters. Therefore adding dropped spindles but bringing the van up on the adjusters would retain the current height but should give me more travel back in the suspension.

As for the steering I did notice rips in the coupler but when I wiggle the steering there is no delay/slack at that point. It seem the slack is as turning comes out of box. I will replace the coupler anyway and then in winter send box off to Midland for refurb.

Finally.... the brakes! My drums seem oval as the pedal pulses back under braking. Therefore it is probably time to change the drums and shoes on the front but is it worth spending 3 time the money and changing to disc? We only use the van every other weekend and short trips away.

Thanks again for all the help. I'm loving earlybay ownership and learning loads, I just don't have the funds to do these jobs twice so any hints about the right route first time are greatly received

 

[ozziedog]

Hi Bernie, do you have an anti roll bar yet. It's just that Ive been yacking on another forum and they are really telling me about a big improvement by putting on a heavy duty anti roll bar and that's something I'm toying with myself. So what I'm suggesting is, if you already have one then fit it, if you don't have one then buy the heavy duty one for the best results. Old ones are available second hand but you would still need new rubbers and clamps for them so you may as well go for gold and get the heavy duty one. Second hand ones like mine have Maybe had a tough life but I don't know how to test one, yes it's better than nothing but is it half as good as a new and a quarter as good as a new heavy duty one ? I just don't know. Plus,were the people that tried the heavy duty ones partially masking a different problem like an iffy steering box or a buggered pin, who knows. :mrgreen:

Ozziedog,,,,,,, another job on the huge and ever growing list :mrgreen:

 

[chug]

What you have mentioned about fitting dropped spindles and taking it back up on the adjusters is something I would like to do on mine, interested to hear peoples thoughts on that.

 

[StuF]

Ive got CSP disks on the front and they are a great bit of kit. I have coupled with a remote servo and the bus stops and brakes like a modern car!
Servo was installed by Graham at Midland Early Bay - highly recommended!
Its one of the things ive never had an issue spending money on especially with the amount of gear we tend to lug about with us and its one think I would never like to run out of!

Problem with drums is the fact they need adjusting very frequently to stay efficient - if your up to the task of adjusting them several times a year I cant see why you should shoulder the expense of the disk brake conversion.
Another issue with drums can be heat dissipation, we have done several trips to Europe and some of the long mountain roads especially in the Alps tested our disks and pads to the point of gassing the pads up.
Could have been "challenging/catastrophic" with drums on, however if you don't intend on tackling any mountain passes and long descents and keep them adjusted I am sure they will be fine. If more challenging trips are planned for future save some pennies up and get some brake work done.

There are other options available other than CSP too - loads of peeps go for a porsche setup and can then install porsche pattern wheel easily using these. Also a late bay disk install can be had for not much money however I would budget for refurbishing the calipers if you do go for a used setup for safety reasons.

 

[bernie]

Ok, decision made
I'm going to start by fitting an uprated anti-roll bar and some decent shocks.... probably from Heritage as they are just round the corner from me.
(I have heard it reduces clearance under a lowered bus but mine isn't that low so hopefully it will be ok)
Then if the ride is still a bit dodgy I will look at transporterhaus dropped spindles and raise the beam adjusters.

It will take me a couple of weeks as we are away in the van this weekend at Carfest South but I will let you know how I get on.

Drum / discs decision is still up in the air but for now I will prob overhaul and adjust the drums until I decide whether I will go with drop spindles as I believe the spindles need to be chosen to match either drum or disc.

That should keep me busy for a bit.

 

[ozziedog]

What you have mentioned about fitting dropped spindles and taking it back up on the adjusters is something I would like to do on mine, interested to hear peoples thoughts on that.

Iv`e heard this mentioned a couple of times and I can`t for the life of me understand where we`re going with this. There is X amount of space or movement available between the top of the arch and the tyre or suspension travel. You lower the van and you reduce the amount of X or suspension travel available, the more you lower the more chance of it rubbing. You can reduce the size of your wheels and that will give you a tad of space above the wheel so you could go lower more, and it will drop the whole van lower just because its smaller. The tyres will contact the arch somewhere along the line. Good quality coil overs help stiffen the suspension so it`s harder and this will lessen rubbing. When you are as low as this you are then on the limit of your ball joints, to go lower again you then have to do something like T Haus reversed joint spindles, now you can`it use these spindles and the adjusters to the max, but that drops the van just a little more but you still have the rubbing issues multiplying under the arch, so now you`re talking about enlarging the arch or tubbing and you can just keep getting carried away, to get around the ball joints you can also go to a King and Link pin beam which is older technology and maybe a step backwards. You can raise your beam, you can do all sorts but reality is they don`t drive too well. But your van your rules

Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,,,can`t see a benefit,, at all :mrgreen:

 

[StuF]

Ozzie - can you recommend any decent coil over shocks for the front and rear?
We are a little too soft and the balljoint limits are reached when a bump in the road is contacted with

 

[bernie]

Hi Ozzie, your prob right, vw knew what they were so should prob leave it alone but this is the info I was given
How I understand the info I was told.... and bear with me as new to all this is......
Say you have adjusters in your beam and they are set at lowest.... the wheels are brought up in the arch as the beam and bus are lower to the ground. Say 5 inches lower than stock. But this means not a lot of travel left in the geometry of the suspension.
If drop spindles are used say 2.5inch then the adjusters can be lifted up 2.5 inches giving a total of 5 inch drop still, tyres stay in the same place in the arch but you gain a beam 2.5 inches higher off the ground than previous and more travel in the suspension geometry making it closer to stock. That's how I understood it but like I said all new to me.
My wheels sit nicely at the moment... don't rub but suspension is a bit harsh. I don't want to go any lower, too old for that but a smoother ride as it sits would be nice.
Hope that makes sense of where I'm coming from.

 

[ozziedog]

There are so many Opinioinions on this and lots of different ways of doing things and people read half a story and add this bit and that bit like it`ll increase your track ,,, some do and some don`t. Graham at Midland Early Bay has a nice line in lowering products from Ze French Slammer range and they seem to come out with glowing reports. I can`t understand why your suspension is harsh as it should be the same but less of it, unless the shocks are bottoming out, easy enough to test, just whip em off and run it gently for a tiny spell like 50 metres or something. But back to Bay6 if you got five inches or two and a half twice your wheels will end up in the same spot in the arch and be quite close to the top of the arch and the seat tubs just because there won`t be much travel left. If any one on here reading this is stock, could you pop a tape between the underside of the arch and top of the tyre, be interesting how much was there at stock.And stock rides best for sure.

Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,,,,You ain`t as old as me, cus I`m well old :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:

 

[ozziedog]

Ozzie - can you recommend any decent coil over shocks for the front and rear?
We are a little too soft and the balljoint limits are reached when a bump in the road is contacted with

Are you serious ??? Or is that the mrs buggering about :lol: I got a couple of good old rear ones you can try so you`ll know if tis worth it. But the front ones, I like those ones on that thread that quite a few have now. Don`t think coil overs apart from looks will do too much on the ass end as there is just way too much weight. So I got those gaz coilovers and I think they is the biz.

Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You read the thread, din`t you ? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Moseley]

Hi Ozzie, your prob right, vw knew what they were so should prob leave it alone but this is the info I was given [emoji4]
How I understand the info I was told.... and bear with me as new to all this is......
Say you have adjusters in your beam and they are set at lowest.... the wheels are brought up in the arch as the beam and bus are lower to the ground. Say 5 inches lower than stock. But this means not a lot of travel left in the geometry of the suspension.
If drop spindles are used say 2.5inch then the adjusters can be lifted up 2.5 inches giving a total of 5 inch drop still, tyres stay in the same place in the arch but you gain a beam 2.5 inches higher off the ground than previous and more travel in the suspension geometry making it closer to stock. That's how I understood it but like I said all new to me.
My wheels sit nicely at the moment... don't rub but suspension is a bit harsh. I don't want to go any lower, too old for that but a smoother ride as it sits would be nice. [emoji16]
Hope that makes sense of where I'm coming from. [emoji106]

Slightly misunderstood I'm afraid - when fitting dropped spindles, all you are doing is altering where the wheel mounts to the suspension moving parts. Ultimately, if you have two vans lowered to the same height, one with dropped spindles and one with standard, the only difference is that one van will have suspension arms at a tight angle and risks bottoming out the ball joints, the other has the arms at a much more level position and will have more suspension travel before the ball joints are on their limits. Everything else remains the same; geometry, track rods, beam height.

Obviously if the ball joints have lots of travel remaining, then the suspension is free to move until the next pinch point, and in most cases this is the wheel hitting the arch. At this point, you can either fit stiffer springs (I.e. Coilovers) to minimise the chance of hitting arches by stiffening up the suspension, or tub the arches to make use of the additional suspension travel!


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