Wandering lowered bay.

[gingertim]

Hi, I find my bay is not really relaxing to drive. It's lowered with a 2'' narrowed king and link pin beam, adjustable rear spring plates. Also different size tyres front to rear. Only what a lot of you guys seem to be running. I've had the front and rear wheel alignment set to 30min toe in. Setting the alignment has helped a lot but when on a straight road or motorway it can wander quite a bit, sometimes it does not seem to bad but once it starts to wonder I just seem to keep having to correct it left and right lots before it settles and I can relax again. Cats eyes can be a pain and the lorry tracks that sink into the motorway are a nightmare. Am I expecting to much? Is it my fault for going with lowering and narrowing the beam and should put up with it? Just wanted some peoples opinions really, only ever driven one standard bay for a couple of miles and mine which was lowered on a ball joint beam to far and was terrible to drive when I bought it! Any help-advice would be appreciated. It would be nice to be able to go for a long drive and my sides not to ache like mad from the excessive steering and clinging on to the steering wheel.

 

[jonboylaw]

What tyres are you running on the front? I recently swapped over to vancos and it made a huge difference.


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[gingertim]

185/60/14 kumho front and 185/80/14 rear can't remember the make of the rears.

 

[DubBGood2Me]

Do you have an anti roll bar fitted? I ran without one for a while on my lowered bus and it scared the wahoodgees out of me. Put the arb on and it made a massive difference.

 

[paul_q]

Volksworld feature on evel bens westy talks about castor angle being a problem. There aren't many beams with adjustable castor angle around though.

 

[Moseley]

It can be a difficult one to answer, as tramlining can be quite subjective - i.e. your idea of bad might be someone elses idea of something that is second nature and goes unnoticed.

If your tracking is ok, I'd make sure your tyre pressures are even, and then the only thing I can think would have a largely noticeable effect on wandering would be to ensure all your steering components are tight. If there is a small amount of play in any component then obviously the wheels can change between both pointing where they should be, to pointing in different directions. This would mean a lot of constant correction is required, and tyres wearing quickly and unevenly.

I am lowered on dropped spindles and coilovers and have the standard steering box play, and no ARB fitted. Tracking has been adjusted since I renewed all the steering components with ball joints, and I'm on car tyres up front. Personally, I don't overly notice much tramlining, the worst thing I have to deal with on the road is juggernauts overtaking which takes a bit of concentration to keep it from drifting across the lane.

 

[gingertim]

Hi, no anti roll bar fitted but I've not got ball joint beam any more, can you fit one to a king and link pin beam?
I've checked pressures, they seem ok.
The steering is quite new, as in I've replaced the steering box and link arm to the pivot on the beam. The beam was replace with a T2D set up so the tie rods are new and spindles are all greased. I've also got coil over shockers.
I know what you mean about being passed-passing lorry's, it's the same sort of thing really that happens but I might be not next to anything on the road, just seems to have a bit of a wondery moment as and when it feels like it?
Was not sure if it was because of the fact it has a narrowed beam?
As for alignment I've not had the castor checked? Just the toe front and rear. What do you guys set your alignment to?
The only other bay I've driven was standard, on ball joint and seemed to drive nicer although I only drove it for 4-5 miles. I've read a lot on forums-mags and at spoke to people at shows, they seem to say their lowered vans drive fine? (apart from tyres rubbing, bottoming out as expected)
I'm not expecting it to be the most relaxing car, and everything that's been done has made an improvement. I just don't think its quite right as it is or could be improved.
Maybe I'm just to fussy but I thought it was worth asking some people who have more experience and might be able to tell me I'm being stupid or have a solution.

 

[jonboylaw]

Are you sure it is not a cross wind hitting the van ??


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[gvee]

If you let go of the steering wheel whilst moving, does the van wander?

It sounds to me like the problem occurs when you go over a bump i.e. when the suspension travels, not when you're on a flat surface - is this true?
If so, then it sounds like you might be getting "bump steer", which feels awful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_steer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Main culprit is tracking, second is camber.

Here's a nice article on the subject: http://naxja.org/html/techarticles/bumpsteertech.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check your tie rods are straight. Also check that they have sufficient clearance to the chassis. If one of your tie rods is hitting the chassis, then this will also cause you a problem.

 

[Doctor_D]

I feel your pain mate, mine is exactly the same with a similar setup.

I've replaced almost everything but the beam, which was narrowed before I got the bus.
It's always been a bit iffy to drive and since I've replaced everything (rods and tyres) it feels worse.

One person in the know, advised me to try replacing the rear shocks and ditching the horse shoe plates so that will be next on the list.

If all else fails then I'm going to buy a beam with caster dialed in from a reputable company, any recommendations welcome.

Or I may just take it to somebody like Fellowspeedshop or Matt Ballz and let them sort it....

Give me a PM with your location, maybe we could compare handling if you're close...

 

[paul_q]

The only beam I can find with adjustable castor, looks good with needle bearings.
http://dog-back.blogspot.co.uk/2012_04_01_archive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Has anybody got one fitted to there bus?

 

[gingertim]

I'm running standard bay wheels, 14 inch and think they are 5.5 wide?
It does feel like its being blown around by the wind but when out and about and it happens I've looked and the trees are not really being blown around. If i let go when driving it goes straight but it does not take much of a bump or diveation in the road for it to make the van wonder. If it is bump steer due to alignment then what do you guys set yours to? Set it like a standard van or different?
I'm glad I'm not the only one, hopefully this thread will help more than just me
Looking at lots of forums and different threads about lowered vans lots of people use adjustable spring plates and horse shoes or both at time with out mention of poor handling so i cant see that removing them would help? If anything dropping a spline makes the ride bad so I've read?

 

[Grazy]

Ive got a similar set up and fitted a steering damper as i didnt have one , This helped

I think some of your symptoms are part and parcel of a lowered bay , and you may get used to it after a time

 

[mister]

Ive got a similar set up and fitted a steering damper as i didnt have one , This helped

I think some of your symptoms are part and parcel of a lowered bay , and you may get used to it after a time

If all the tyre pressures are correct and all the mechanical aspects are good then I would agree with Grazy here. I had a narrowed beam fitted this summer, and the bus does drive different because of the narrowed track and no anti roll bar. At first it was a little disconcerting, but now I am used to it it feels totally normal again.

 

[autocraftkid]

I think it's a subjective thing, loads of my customers say their vans drive really well slammed and narrowed, it depends what your happy to put up with, in my opinion when you narrow and the ackerman angle changes they never drive the same as a standard van would, also car tyres whilst they work ok and very rarely fail due to overloading are not really up to the job, the sidewalls are too soft so they flex a lot, especially in side winds or when trucks are passing.
One of the nicest driving vans I work on belongs to a more mature customer of mine who has had his '69 from new, it's nearly totally standard apart from white KYB gas-adjust shocks and uprated anti roll bars front and rear, I think the kit was from Just Kampers a few years ago, it's not lowered at all and runs on some 195 R14 correct van rated tyres, he only went for this tyre size to up the gearing slightly, it drives like a modern car to be honest, not as quick but very stable and can be driven easily one handed on the motorway with virtually no wandering at all.
Saying that the slammed and narrowed vans do look cooler

 

[autocraftkid]

Forgot to say my brothers '69 drives ok on a narrowed beam and drop spindles, it wanders a bit but isn't too bad, on the other hand my '65 split that I've owned 15 years and done many thousands of miles in all round europe recently had fitted a 4" narrowed beam and drives badly compared to the standard beam, it corners oddly, rides on the top of tramlines whilst the rear are more in the tramlines, gets blown around a lot and generally isn't happy, one thing I noticed was most narrowed beams don't have steering damper mounts, I fitted a mount and a damper, this improved things a little but not loads, nothing else has been changed apart from the wheels, tyres are the same as before, it rides very low and only went narrowed to gain more clearance on the front end as the tyre caught the edge of the wheel arch box section, I refitted the standard beam and it's perfect again, proof if you need it that maybe narrowed isn't great for driveability but does look great, I'm undecided which way to go with it, i'll probably leave the narrowed beam on it as I love the look, my '68 bay hightop bought from Graham L on here will remain totally standard at the moment as it is going to be my family camper and we hope to do some wild camping in it and lowered is no good for than, we'll see how that drives

 

[andy11]

The problem has already been discussed and it's the Castor angle that's the problem, when we go and lower our bays it ***** the castor angle up so will not drive in a straight line anymore and the steering wheel will not auto centre anymore. The only cure for this is a castor adjustable beam which will give a decent castor angle back. Also the rest of the components need to be in good order such as steering pin, steering box, track rods etc aswell as correct tracking.

 

[gvee]

For the record I run pretty close to the ground.
3" narrowed beam, low-pro tyres, dropped spindles, beam adjusted down, has tubs for the necessary clearance. I am as low as possible without chassis notches.

I set my camber to maximum and did my own tracking. It drove okay but there was definitely some bump steer.
It took me a while to find a place who could set it properly (either I couldn't fit on the ramp, or they couldn't get the gear in the tight space between body and tyre). It is important to point out to them that the narrowed beam means that they can't do the alignment based off the rear wheels (which is what a few places did/do) - each axle must be treated independently of the measurement will be off.

Since then it drives like a dream.

P.S. I have no caster adjustment.

 

[gingertim]

So what degree Toe in-out do you run front and rear? What about camber settings?

 

[gvee]

Front is set slightly toe-in. The tyre place didn't have a measurement on their system (vehicle too old) so went with what we told them which was straight from the Haynes manual. Sorry, I wish I knew the figure off the top of my head but I don't!