Welded spindles... Breaking?
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the councillor
Well-known member
might this post be connected to my (and other's) replies on monkeyspinner ?
if so then i too don't want to scare anybody; i think ultimately we're looking for the same evidence.
the history of welded spindles in the vw 'scene' goes back further than i've been involved - welded spindle failure was apparently an issue on beetles before 'proper' dropped spindles were available; the trouble being that this was all in the dark, pre-internet days when everything wasn't scrutinised worldwide to the Nth degree, so there's very little factual evidence to go on... you can type the name of a deceased F1 star into google and the chances are you'll find pages of info, and indeed video footage down to the minutest of gory detail (lorenzo bandini's horrific demise at monaco springs to mind
) but there's no way of finding out that mr xxxxxx spun off the road in chichester and buckled an empi 8 due to welded spindle failure in 1990, so it's frustrating trying to gather evidence of any sort that isn't based on rumour and hearsay.
so does that mean a welded spindle hasn't ever failed ?
i HONESTLY don't know, not 100%.
however, something must have given somebody the idea of making forged spindles, because the idea of people manufacturing their own welded beetle spindles just seems laughable now.
the (balljoint) bus scene is seemingly therefore at least a decade behind in terms of spindle technology. people (the bog standard man in the street) want a nice easy way of lowering them, without the associated hassles of taking the beam out, welding in adjusters and so on, and the dropped spindle is the obvious way of doing it... or people want to 'go the extra', they've gone as far as the 'conventional' way allows, and so they've added a dropped spindle for that extra couple of inches.
believe me, i've wracked my brains over the last five years to come up with a non-welded balljoint bus dropped spindle (i have an engineering background but i'm no bruce maclaren) and i personally can't see a way to do it, not 100% safely anyway, so then it boils down to whether or not you'll accept a welded substitute.
if you will then as far as i'm concerned there are two areas that need clarification once and for all, both for the people who want to run them on their buses, and the people who have to share the road with them... so that's everybody then...
the first is a fully detailed explanation of the manufacturing process... how they're machined, how they're aligned, how they're welded, any post-welding processes, basically how EXACTLY they're turned from A into B.
the second is a proper, certified record of how they've been tested AFTER manufacture to see that they're up to the job... how much force can they withstand before deformation compared to the stock VW part, how they might stand up to the repeated loadings they'll be subjected to over the course of 100,000 miles and beyond and so on and so on.
the usual stuff really... the sort of stuff that would be done were it an original OEM part.
i had a set of balljoint bus spindles made for me back in 2004... i know exactly what was done to them and me and the people who made them RECKON they're up to the job, but i'm still reluctant to roll with them, because i have no way of knowing how they'll react to being repeatedly stressed at 60MPH under a 2 ton bus, and the only way I'VE got of testing them is to bolt them to my bus and drive it until it fails, whilst all the while thinking "is it gonna be on this bend... or this one..."
might never happen, but it'd be a right blooming mess if it did :|
now that might sound like the witterings of an old woman... i like modified vehicles, don't get me wrong, but there are things that you can change and you KNOW they're gonna be ok, but welded spindles... i just don't know, and as far as i can tell the only guarantee that they're gonna be up to the job is a guy in a garage 5000 miles away saying "yeah, they'll be fine" down a phone... the world i exist in doesn't seem to think that's sufficient proof anymore
if so then i too don't want to scare anybody; i think ultimately we're looking for the same evidence.
the history of welded spindles in the vw 'scene' goes back further than i've been involved - welded spindle failure was apparently an issue on beetles before 'proper' dropped spindles were available; the trouble being that this was all in the dark, pre-internet days when everything wasn't scrutinised worldwide to the Nth degree, so there's very little factual evidence to go on... you can type the name of a deceased F1 star into google and the chances are you'll find pages of info, and indeed video footage down to the minutest of gory detail (lorenzo bandini's horrific demise at monaco springs to mind
) but there's no way of finding out that mr xxxxxx spun off the road in chichester and buckled an empi 8 due to welded spindle failure in 1990, so it's frustrating trying to gather evidence of any sort that isn't based on rumour and hearsay.so does that mean a welded spindle hasn't ever failed ?
i HONESTLY don't know, not 100%.
however, something must have given somebody the idea of making forged spindles, because the idea of people manufacturing their own welded beetle spindles just seems laughable now.
the (balljoint) bus scene is seemingly therefore at least a decade behind in terms of spindle technology. people (the bog standard man in the street) want a nice easy way of lowering them, without the associated hassles of taking the beam out, welding in adjusters and so on, and the dropped spindle is the obvious way of doing it... or people want to 'go the extra', they've gone as far as the 'conventional' way allows, and so they've added a dropped spindle for that extra couple of inches.
believe me, i've wracked my brains over the last five years to come up with a non-welded balljoint bus dropped spindle (i have an engineering background but i'm no bruce maclaren) and i personally can't see a way to do it, not 100% safely anyway, so then it boils down to whether or not you'll accept a welded substitute.
if you will then as far as i'm concerned there are two areas that need clarification once and for all, both for the people who want to run them on their buses, and the people who have to share the road with them... so that's everybody then...
the first is a fully detailed explanation of the manufacturing process... how they're machined, how they're aligned, how they're welded, any post-welding processes, basically how EXACTLY they're turned from A into B.
the second is a proper, certified record of how they've been tested AFTER manufacture to see that they're up to the job... how much force can they withstand before deformation compared to the stock VW part, how they might stand up to the repeated loadings they'll be subjected to over the course of 100,000 miles and beyond and so on and so on.
the usual stuff really... the sort of stuff that would be done were it an original OEM part.
i had a set of balljoint bus spindles made for me back in 2004... i know exactly what was done to them and me and the people who made them RECKON they're up to the job, but i'm still reluctant to roll with them, because i have no way of knowing how they'll react to being repeatedly stressed at 60MPH under a 2 ton bus, and the only way I'VE got of testing them is to bolt them to my bus and drive it until it fails, whilst all the while thinking "is it gonna be on this bend... or this one..."
might never happen, but it'd be a right blooming mess if it did :|
now that might sound like the witterings of an old woman... i like modified vehicles, don't get me wrong, but there are things that you can change and you KNOW they're gonna be ok, but welded spindles... i just don't know, and as far as i can tell the only guarantee that they're gonna be up to the job is a guy in a garage 5000 miles away saying "yeah, they'll be fine" down a phone... the world i exist in doesn't seem to think that's sufficient proof anymore
Well you've just shot up in my estimation after all the piss taking out of me etc on the other thread.
I must admit I've always been of the "Well if they can sell them they must be ok" school of thought, but I do see your points, and I agree with most of them.
I've been using mine from Wagens West for six months now and I must admit I do get that 'doubt' occasionally when I'm driving, which is why I started this thread. Like you I'm after hard evidence, not hearsay.
Problem is the ride is so much better with them at that height and I can't afford to go the linkpin route, so what do I do?
I check them from time to time for wear or cracks (forget the whole stress thing :wink and in the long term, when and if someone brings out some forged spindles I'll probably put my hand in my pocket and roll with them.
8)
I must admit I've always been of the "Well if they can sell them they must be ok" school of thought, but I do see your points, and I agree with most of them.
I've been using mine from Wagens West for six months now and I must admit I do get that 'doubt' occasionally when I'm driving, which is why I started this thread. Like you I'm after hard evidence, not hearsay.
Problem is the ride is so much better with them at that height and I can't afford to go the linkpin route, so what do I do?
I check them from time to time for wear or cracks (forget the whole stress thing :wink
and in the long term, when and if someone brings out some forged spindles I'll probably put my hand in my pocket and roll with them.8)
Slammed said:
Rest assured, a nightmare of a tease he is, but a nicer chap you'll not meet
And he knows and studies stuff more than Ill EVER have the time or patience with smudge
Well-known member
just been having a read up on spindles and stuff...why do welded one make the wheel stick out further than forged ones? :?:
ground hugger
Well-known member
I too have heard of no accidents with dropped spindles
But seen as where talking slamming bays"hope you dont mind me butting in on your thread"
Just an idea..I recently had some end plates made up for a narrowed beam that I have made.....When I fitted it I noticed that you could move/reposition the top tube 15mm /20mm higher with a bit of fetteling
of the inner seam and welding it back up 15/20mm Slamming.
So if you moved the top tube up and forward 15mm your wheel would be 7mm forward in the arch.but if then you put the bottom tube 15mm
back ,that would put the wheel at omm...Do you follow :?
How much more drop could you get.?.In theory you have put your ball joints in a better position "not a lot I know"
And this is where I think/have doubts because the bottom tube
would be further back than the top tube.But it should be 3/4mm forward
Just a thought or am I barking up the wrong tree here ?
But seen as where talking slamming bays"hope you dont mind me butting in on your thread"
Just an idea..I recently had some end plates made up for a narrowed beam that I have made.....When I fitted it I noticed that you could move/reposition the top tube 15mm /20mm higher with a bit of fetteling
of the inner seam and welding it back up 15/20mm Slamming.
So if you moved the top tube up and forward 15mm your wheel would be 7mm forward in the arch.but if then you put the bottom tube 15mm
back ,that would put the wheel at omm...Do you follow :?
How much more drop could you get.?.In theory you have put your ball joints in a better position "not a lot I know"
And this is where I think/have doubts because the bottom tube
would be further back than the top tube.But it should be 3/4mm forward
Just a thought or am I barking up the wrong tree here ?
the councillor
Well-known member
Slammed said:
pleeeeeease go back and read the whole thread through again... my first reply on there states that it's a 'genuine question' (which it is as i think i've proved with all the waffle above) my second is just a condensed, pretending to be cool because it's 'RBoD' instead of 'early bay' version of the essay i've written here and any 'piss-taking' is aimed squarely at scotty and his rather laboured attempt at *humour* :wink:
i am a complete arse but i'm a kind, sincere arse :lol:
by the way, i think i bought some parts off you way back when you were 'ollatron'
clem - much appreciated mate 8)
Councillor, I did go back and read the other thread, and perhaps I was a bit too harsh in not replying, but I didn't want to rise to it! :wink:
Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, and written "check for cracks" rather than "test for stress" like I did. I mean, how the hell would I be able to stress test them?!
What parts did I sell you? Hope they weren't spindles! :lol:
I've been thinking about this last night, and as Ben says, knocking on ball joints is just as bad, and it's a weaker point to break if the worst should happen. But if the bus isn't sitting on the balljoints like mine (it's as high as it'll go now on the adjusters, even though it is still low) and the shocks are doing their job properly dampening the ride, then surely the amount of stress on the spindles will be as minimal (safe?) as possible.
Also, the welds on these spindles (mine are WagensWest), are HUGE, and it's a large contact area, so although there is a risk, I think it could be a lot worse.
By the way, I did call Cool Air the other day under the pretence of buying a pair of welded spindles, but I was unable to get them to certify them as they didn't have any in stock and said they're having problems getting hold of them.
However, what's interesting is that they don't source them just from WW, apparently they get them from other sources too...
What the guy did say though is that his dad is a welder who knows his onions and he wouldn't sell them if he thought the welds were dangerous.
I guess until there's some sort of legislation on this, that's the closest you'll get to certification.
Still no concrete examples of them breaking then... 8)
Perhaps I should have phrased it differently, and written "check for cracks" rather than "test for stress" like I did. I mean, how the hell would I be able to stress test them?!
What parts did I sell you? Hope they weren't spindles! :lol:
I've been thinking about this last night, and as Ben says, knocking on ball joints is just as bad, and it's a weaker point to break if the worst should happen. But if the bus isn't sitting on the balljoints like mine (it's as high as it'll go now on the adjusters, even though it is still low) and the shocks are doing their job properly dampening the ride, then surely the amount of stress on the spindles will be as minimal (safe?) as possible.
Also, the welds on these spindles (mine are WagensWest), are HUGE, and it's a large contact area, so although there is a risk, I think it could be a lot worse.
By the way, I did call Cool Air the other day under the pretence of buying a pair of welded spindles, but I was unable to get them to certify them as they didn't have any in stock and said they're having problems getting hold of them.
However, what's interesting is that they don't source them just from WW, apparently they get them from other sources too...
What the guy did say though is that his dad is a welder who knows his onions and he wouldn't sell them if he thought the welds were dangerous.
I guess until there's some sort of legislation on this, that's the closest you'll get to certification.
Still no concrete examples of them breaking then... 8)
Slammed said:
Barrells and pistons I think, you delivered to me in my late bay at the very very wet Bing Bang, you were in a Buggy, I think? councillor couldnt be arsed to turn up ...... twas years ago now!
Dads a welder .... that really is no way to run a business is it? That means jack. I weld stuff from time to time. My daughter could genuinely say 'My Dads a welder' and I couldnt possibly know jack about spindles :shock:
No no examples at all. I dont think there are any examples of failed Red9 systems either, but the internet is full of disiaster stories about what 'might' happen! :lol:
andewilson
Well-known member
i was waiting for cool air to bring out their illusive forged spindles. but at 400 notes for welded they claim it will be almost twice that for forged :shock:
i am waiting on a set from wagons £270 delivered. i'll take my chances. a bus with a rotted out chassis held together with silcone sealant and hope (as mine was when i bought it). is surely more of a hazard than a set of spindles welded by a guy in the states who knocks them out as a living
i am waiting on a set from wagons £270 delivered. i'll take my chances. a bus with a rotted out chassis held together with silcone sealant and hope (as mine was when i bought it). is surely more of a hazard than a set of spindles welded by a guy in the states who knocks them out as a living
smudge
Well-known member
Evilben said:
when lowering my late Bay...this is the bit i didnt like.it puts alot more load on the ball joints and like said puts them at the wrong angle.ive now gone KnL...best way to go IMO
slammedresto
Well-known member
andewilson said:
cool air sell the wagenwest spindles
before i ordered another set from nate, i checked with cool air, who told me they have full tested them and they are happy with the quality, my view is if nate makes a living sellin them and cool air are happy to stock them they must be okay
and i dont think he would still be in business if a set had failed in the US, they are not afraid of sueing out there
slammedresto
Well-known member
Slammed said:
to be fair they did also tell me that they were having trouble getting them at the time too, but having heard how busy nate is, and the wait we had for our group buy last year, im not surprised they cant get hold of them from WW
but as i said they told me they didnt have a problem with the quality of WW spindles, and had tested them etc.
G
Guest
Guest
i have bought horseshoes and spindles from Nate and have no quams, you have to realise the volume of spindles this guy produces and not one failure yet, ive asked.
like ande id be more concerned of a 40 year old rusty chassis or beam. If welded parts were so dangerous they wouldnt pass MOT would they?
like ande id be more concerned of a 40 year old rusty chassis or beam. If welded parts were so dangerous they wouldnt pass MOT would they?
Check it out -
:shock:
:shock:
ground hugger
Well-known member
What the F^$K :shock: :shock:
ant
Well-known member
ground hugger said:
Indeed :shock: .... is that the frt and back of the same bus clem? tell us more, i'm gobsmacked at the frt beam pic.
