How to fit Porsche Wheels on an Earlybay (71)

[Nugsy]

I have read post after post (on other sites as well :shock: ) of how to fit Porsche Alloys to a Bay Window, and was after a definative answer maybe a sticky :?:

I know there are a lot of variables ride height (narrower tyres on the rear to stop rubbing) and how it was done (adjusters and splines etc), ETs (et 23, et 36 or et53 maybe more), narrowed beams etc

My Bus will be a 71 DeLuxe (on its way) replacing my fire destroyed 72
I have bought some horseshoes for the rear off lowerlight (shameless plug) and will get drop spindles preferably from Transporthaus (seem the best option, other drop spindles are available)

I want to avoid using adapters (but may have them on the front if a necessity) and know these are available

So to the options:

1)Porsche pattern disk kit all round - around £1600

2)Creative Engineering Porsche pattern rear drums with porsche 944 hubs, 911 disks and boxter/aftermarket calipers inc fitting kit - around £600 (depending on fleabay availabilty of parts)

3) Get both standard front hubs and rear drums re-drilled to allow fitment of porsche pattern. Ive seen a step by step thing on front hubs. But do i need wide 5 on the rear in order to be able to redrill into the hub (makes sense in my head or is it late bay drums)

4) A mixture of any of the above


So am now totally lost.

I have bought a set of Cookie Cutters off Andy on here Front 6" (et36) and Rear 7" (et23). And know these are ok to fit with any of the above options as i am not widening the track

Im also looking at getting some teledials but they tend to be sets of 7"'s with et23, backs will be fine but are they to big for fronts, or do i need 7" et52 teledials or 6" with either et23 or et52, can you see where this is heading :roll:

Any help, advice, pics of peoples current set ups etc would be welcome. there are enough bus's out then on Porsche wheels, i just want to know the cheapest safest way, as i am not going to compromise safety.

 

[uber cool]

There is another solution for the front. Early non turbo 944 hubs will fit on standard early bay spindles (same bearing size) then you need an adaptor for the brake calilper. There a fe on here running this setup. Not sure about the rear.

 

[Nugsy]

Great another option :lol: :lol: (hadnt read about that yet)

Seriously thanks for the info, am i right in guessing these are rarer than the turbo front hub option

 

[Rob b]

Some one on here has done this

Looks like they drilled the disc an put studs in that as the hub doesn't look like it's been done

I might to wrong

Also I would say the rear could be re drilled easy if you look at this

But I can't remember if where
The studs are pressed in there are thicker bits of metal to seat them

Cheers rob
In

 

[Nugsy]

Thanks for those pictures they are brilliant

My mate who's garage i use was saying a similar thing about the rear drums, that if its drilled and tapped the amterial needs to be 7mm thicker than the bolt you are using. But if you use studs the fact they are pressed in on splines they should not pull through.

maybe i need to pull a hub and drum off my old fire damaged one and see how easy it can be done, before the insurance come and get it

 

[Rob b]

Yeah that would be a good call as I'm in the same shoes as you at the minute not sure which way to go I was thinking adapters for an easy life but I wanted the narrow front I've payed for lol


Rob

 

[Geeze]

Sounds like you've pretty much got the suss of it but to confirm your thoughts....

Back first (because it's easiest :lol: )

You need high offset (et52, et45, etc) if you want to run adaptors but for low offset (et23) you need to bolt the wheels straight to the hubs.
To do this, the cheapest way is to redrill the late (narrow 5) hubs and drums to 5x130. See Radish's thread for details.
Or if you want off the shelf, just buy the Creative set up (see Rusty Lee's thread).
Either way, you need to start with the 5x112 set up that you've got, which is handy!
You can fit 944 rear brakes but, to be honest, it's not as cheap or easy as for other aircooleds so it's probably only really worth doing if you want rear discs as you need the special adaptor plates from oldspeed or similar (see Mycha's whitewesty thread!).
If you only want rear discs because they're self adjusting and you're feeling lazy (and I'm tempted ) then T25 rear drums are an easier and cheaper way to get that!

Front isn't so simple :evil:
The safest method is probably to use adapters. Sounds like you've heard the scare stories about them, but fundamentally there's nothing wrong with them (front discs on transits effectively use adapters), just make sure that you buy a decent, reputable make. It's usually the cheap, nasty and badly designed ones that seem to be the source of the scarey cracked up and failing images.
Trouble is that the thinnest adapters are still going to be 15-20mm thick and cause issues with your front track unless you fit a narrowed beam.

To fit Porsche pattern wheels straight to the hub, you've got two popular options.
You can either redrill the front hubs to 5x130 (as shown above) or you can fit 944 front discs (as in most of the above threads).
For 944 discs, you can either keep disc spindles and go with Wilwoods or, if you're getting new (dropped) spindles anyway, you could get drum spindles and use the kits for the stock 944 calipers (cheaper than wilwoods plus no concerns about dust seals if that's an issue).
Safety wise, the bay front hub is not really wide enough for 5x130 so it relies on the barrel of the disc hat for support, which concerns some people while others say that the 944 ally hub isn't strong enough for a bus.

Both the above don't widen the track (if anything, the 944 swap narrows it thanks to reverse mount discs) and your et36 cookies are close enough to stock et39 steels that it all should be ok.

Have been thinking through similar dilemnas and think I might have a plan C (using 944 discs with stock hubs :msn4: ) but haven't had the chance to walk it through with a tame machinest yet to check I've not lost the plot entirely from thinking about it all too much.... :roll:

 

[Guest]

ive gone with 944 hubs on the front and an adapter and bearing kit from here http://vdubengineering.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The bearings are slightly different and i'm using late bay spindle sizes as its the red 9 wishbone set. I bought EBC Greenstuff porsche pattern discs and Wilwood 4 pots to fit the disc size.

On the rear I'm using a setup Nelly had on his bus which utilises Astra 2L turbo calipers and home made adapters, again i've bought EBC green stuff porsche pattern with cross drilled discs. I need to drill out the rear hubs to pcd130 and shouldnt add any track to it.

 

[Nugsy]

Thanks to you both for further info on set up options, hopefully this should all clear the minefield i was faced with

To fit Porsche pattern wheels straight to the hub, you've got two popular options.
You can either redrill the front hubs to 5x130 (as shown above) or you can fit 944 front discs (as in most of the above threads).
For 944 discs, you can either keep disc spindles and go with Wilwoods or, if you're getting new (dropped) spindles anyway, you could get drum spindles and use the kits for the stock 944 calipers (cheaper than wilwoods plus no concerns about dust seals if that's an issue).

Ive found a redrill thread on the Samba that matches the pictures Rob b posted above but they cut the screws down rather than conunter sunk
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3489991" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My question is around the set up with porsche hubs, and links into what Johnny says below. Is it right 944 non turbo hubs bolt straight on, can you then use non turbo disks

http://www.ebcbrakeshop.co.uk/porsche-944-25-8185-ebc-standard-discs--front-d141_p4230798.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and your choice of caliper (wilwood or boxster). The other option is the drum spindles and kit Johnny mentions for an all 944 set up, trouble is on the vdubengineering site its says 16" wheels only, my cookies are 15's (sorry Geeze if im just re-writing what you said, but trying to get it straight in my own head )

ive gone with 944 hubs on the front and an adapter and bearing kit from here http://vdubengineering.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
The bearings are slightly different and i'm using late bay spindle sizes as its the red 9 wishbone set. I bought EBC Greenstuff porsche pattern discs and Wilwood 4 pots to fit the disc size.

 

[TransporterHaus]

My question is around the set up with porsche hubs, and links into what Johnny says below. Is it right 944 non turbo hubs bolt straight on, can you then use non turbo disks

http://www.ebcbrakeshop.co.uk/porsche-944-25-8185-ebc-standard-discs--front-d141_p4230798.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and your choice of caliper (wilwood or boxster). The other option is the drum spindles and kit Johnny mentions for an all 944 set up, trouble is on the vdubengineering site its says 16" wheels only, my cookies are 15's (sorry Geeze if im just re-writing what you said, but trying to get it straight in my own head )

Pre 86 944 NA hubs and discs are the ones to go for. Use either single pot steel Ate calipers (standard for all NA). Or if you want a better caliper then look at a brembo 944 S2 or 968 turbo caliper again with a NA hub - you won't be wanting late turbo hubs and the discs are too wide, 1 year only turbo hubs are hard to find. If you are going drop spindles we can do you any type of spindle i.e a 68-70 ones which an adapter plate will let you run either of these calipers. Note the bolt pattern is different on the turbo caliper so get the right adapter kit - we have both available.

btw don't take any notice of the disc picture on that ebc link it aint the right disc :shock:

 

[Nugsy]

Thanks to all as this info has helped me no end and stopped all my head scratching

If you are going drop spindles we can do you any type of spindle i.e a 68-70 ones which an adapter plate will let you run either of these calipers.

btw don't take any notice of the disc picture on that ebc link it aint the right disc :shock:

Thanks for the info, should have come straight to the horses mouth i guess :lol:

Ive already spoken to Graham at Midlandearlybay about using your drop spindles, and as i say got horseshoes for the rear.

Sorry to keep asking but if your adapter kit is the same as vdubengineering ( i guess they are all pretty similar) is it right it will only work with 16" wheels

Also to keep pushing with that set up on the front could i run 7J et23 Teledials or am i better looking for 6's (Cookies are 6 and 7 respectively)

My questions will stop..........honest :shock: :shock:

 

[adamski]

Hi, sorry to jump your thread. What is the kit in option 1 (£1600) you mention? Is this just buying the parts or do you know someone who can provide?

 

[TransporterHaus]

Thanks to all as this info has helped me no end and stopped all my head scratching

Sorry to keep asking but if your adapter kit is the same as vdubengineering ( i guess they are all pretty similar) is it right it will only work with 16" wheels

Also to keep pushing with that set up on the front could i run 7J et23 Teledials or am i better looking for 6's (Cookies are 6 and 7 respectively)

My questions will stop..........honest :shock: :shock:

I've never seen a vdubengineering adapter in the flesh but all of the front kits out there are basically the same. - an adapter plate which the caliper mounts on and bearing spacers which space the bearings out in the hub for the longer bus spindle shaft - that setup will only work with pre 86 NA hubs. 87 on hubs have bigger bearings because the late 944 shaft is thicker. We have machined these hubs to fit vw buses too but it's more work than the earlier stuff.

You can run 14s when you use single pot steel calipers. Using bigger calipers like turbo brembos, boxster and big reds can cause clearance problems with the wheels which is maybe why vdubengineering are specing 16s only?

As to whether 7J teledials work on the front tbh I do not know as I have never fitted them - i'm not keen on teles or cutters

 

[Nugsy]

Hi, sorry to jump your thread. What is the kit in option 1 (£1600) you mention? Is this just buying the parts or do you know someone who can provide?

Hi adamski, the kit i found is from futbus:

http://www.futbus.com/Brake-conversion-kits/View-all-products.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or from Machine 7 (just realised i think this is for pre 67 bus')
http://www.machine7.com/section.php?xSec=1368" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.machine7.com/section.php?xSec=2457" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


TransporterhausThanks for the further info and it all makes perfect sense now. if only my bus were here and i could actually put any of it into practive ( I reckon its around the Azores at the moment)

As to whether 7J teledials work on the front tbh I do not know as I have never fitted them - i'm not keen on teles or cutters

:lol: I think Cookies are cus of my love for 911's since i was a kid (mind you i think they came with steels when i was born)

 

[Geeze]

The early 944NA hubs use the same bearings as the stock T2 spindle 8) , it's just that the bearing spacing (gap inside the hub between inner and outer bearings) is different, so the kits include bearing spacers to move them out to where they need to be for the T2 spindle.

If you use the stock (944 / SC) 282mm disc, you can run 15" wheels no problems.
If you start with a drum spindle, you can use the stock 944 sliding fist caliper or you can fit Wilwoods on either the drum spindle or disc spindle (944 caliper won't fit on the disc spindle, the caliper lug is all wrong and in the way).
Either calipers fits under a 15" wheel with the 282mm disc.

The Turbo stuff needs a bigger wheel (16") because of the bigger disc (298mm iirc) and chunkier calipers.

Technically, you could fit boxster calipers on the 282mm disc under a 15" wheel because I've seen it done on early 911s, but not seen someone do this on a bus yet (probably because there are easier and cheaper options! ).

 

[Nugsy]

Technically, you could fit boxster calipers on the 282mm disc under a 15" wheel because I've seen it done on early 911s, but not seen someone do this on a bus yet (probably because there are easier and cheaper options! ).

I think this last set up is the one i read about 944 hubs, 911 disks and boxster and quoted as number 2 in my original list.

Think i got my shopping list sorted now
944 hubs up to and including 86
up to 86 disks, (282mm inc one year only (86) turbo disks)
944 calipers (single pot ATE)
Transporterhaus drum drop spindles
Drill the rears and use competition studs (thanks to a guy i bought some stuff of ebay from)

Thanks (Uber, Rob, Geeze, Johnny, Transporterhaus) all for all you help and if i've got it wrong now after me reading loads over and over again i give up :lol:

 

[Nugsy]

Well after scouring Ebay and a few phone calls managed to get the complete front legs hubs, disks and calipers plus a set of 7x15 ET23 Teledials and a steel spare from an 85 non turbo 944 all in for £200

Not bad considering one 'dealer' wanted £190 plus VAT just for the hubs, now wheres my bus :lol: :lol: :lol:

So looks like drum drop spindles on the front and drilled hubs on the back

Busy polishing my cookies and deciding on colours for the Teledials (am liking the Black centre and polished rims/apertures)

 

[lhu128l]

I have to say the pic posted by Rob b where they have redrilled a late front hub looks like an accident waiting to happen ... you cant just redrill the rears either you can weld up the holes and move them farther out tho ( they are forged steel ) or CE do a new rear hub in 130 pcd or like me you can make your own :roll:

 

[Nugsy]

so where do you get blank hubs and drums from for the rear without treading on creative engineerings toes

 

[TransporterHaus]