Slamfalia

[Airtime]

Looking at the pictures above..They look like standard spindles flipped over and the arms have been swapped over. :shock: Surely the weight of the bus is pulling on the balljoints

Correct!

The Kieft & Klok dropped spindles are NOT welded, as Marc already mentioned. They are machined and use different ball joints if I'm correct. 8)

 

[faux]

They seem similar (flipped balljoints) to the ones which slammedpanel were doing a while back.

Why did they stop producing them?

I'm not 100% of the physics behind this...but is it a tried and tested method?

 

[Marc]

Hi,
There are diffrent ball joints in it. I don't know wich one because they came with the set when I bought them.
Yes, Slam pannel made these ones in the early days. They invented it.

Greetz,
Marc

 

[Joval]

From what I remember Slammed Panel stopped selling them due to balljoint issues.

 

[roland]

No kidding...

Sorry marc but that's a pretty scary set-up... :?

 

[Dennis]

No kidding...

Sorry marc but that's a pretty scary set-up... :?

Please explain why this should be a scary-setup??

 

[retrokid]

I have to agree with Roland.With the ball joint mounted the correct way round, the weight of the bus is pushing the ball joint in to the spindle, which is tapered... Safe.
With them mounted upside down, the weight of the bus is constantly trying to push the ball joint out of the spindle... Not safe!!
If I had this set up I would constantly want to be checking the ball joint nuts are tight, because they are all that is holding the weight of the bus!!

 

[the councillor]

Please explain why this should be a scary-setup??

can you explain why it isn't a scary set up ?

genuine question, no hidden irony or sarcasm... are you a suspension expert ? can you categorically state that a modification of this kind IS safe ?

i think there are lots of us out here in 'fiddle-land' who are looking for the ultimate in bus lowering kit... i too have spent many a long hour trying to think of ways to get the thing safely down on the floor, and i've come to the conclusion that i don't like any of the available 'bolt on' lowering stuff for bays.

i don't like welded spindles, i don't like horseshoe plates, i don't like notched springplates, and i don't really like the look of these spindles either.

i'm no 'expert' and my terminology may be a bit askew here, but in the majority of suspension set-ups that use balljoints, is it not true that they're in 'compression' so to speak, both the top and bottom one, or the top one is in 'compression' and the bottom one is in 'tension' ?

in this set up we've got the weight of the bus being supported by the threads on those four balljoint 'stubs', and if those threads aren't up to it, and they might not be, if the balljoint wasn't designed to be used *upside-down* as it were, then goodbye steering knuckle.

OR

and it's a big OR, are these special balljoints that have been manufactured especially for this application, which have the tensile strength to hold up the bus and then some ?

this is where speculating on an internet forum is a bit of a waste of time, especially if you haven't got all the facts

i'd like it proven to me that they're 100% safe however, rather than me having to prove that they're unsafe if you see what i mean :wink:

 

[Joval]

I have to agree with Roland.With the ball joint mounted the correct way round, the weight of the bus is pushing the ball joint in to the spindle, which is tapered... Safe.
With them mounted upside down, the weight of the bus is constantly trying to push the ball joint out of the spindle... Not safe!!
If I had this set up I would constantly want to be checking the ball joint nuts are tight, because they are all that is holding the weight of the bus!!

But what if a ball pulled from it's 'socket', your nuts won't help you. :mrgreen:

 

[Dennis]

Please explain why this should be a scary-setup??

can you explain why it isn't a scary set up ?

genuine question, no hidden irony or sarcasm... are you a suspension expert ? can you categorically state that a modification of this kind IS safe ?

No i cannot explain it, because my knowledge at the moment isn't sufficient, hence my question.

Anyhow i 'm going for dropped spindles, but I'd rather not go for welded ones.
W'll see. Safety is my nr 1 priority ofcourse.

Regarding the ball joints. I heard that balljoints are used from an American car which supposed to be strong enough. :roll:

 

[GAS-bus]

Hi

just to give you all my opinion.

I think balljoint are designed to be mounted so that the weight of the car keeps the balljoint in it seating, not the other way around. I attached a drawing of a balljoint to help you see how it works.

When the spindles are flip over, the balljoint itself is mounted upside-down as well. This way the weight of the bus will try to pull the balljoint out of it seating. In the original position the balljoint is pushed in its seating so it can't come lose that easily.

I've allready seen the result of a balljoint being broken (pulled out of eachother)on a bug and there was a lot of damage.

So I would chose welded spindles instead of flipped spindles. That is off course if the welding has been done professionaly.

Greetz

Wim

Just some thinking from Belgium...

 

[uber cool]

I have to agree with Roland.With the ball joint mounted the correct way round, the weight of the bus is pushing the ball joint in to the spindle, which is tapered... Safe.
With them mounted upside down, the weight of the bus is constantly trying to push the ball joint out of the spindle... Not safe!!
If I had this set up I would constantly want to be checking the ball joint nuts are tight, because they are all that is holding the weight of the bus!!

I would be more worried about about the balljoints poping out. The nut would always be tight, you could add a split pin.
However the ball joint could fail at any time, they are not made to have a pull force, only work in compression. I would have thought the pulling force on the ball joint would aslo increase the wear rate of the ball joint. As most on here i'm no suspension expert, but I dont like the look of this, the ball joints could fail with no warning.

I know other cars do have balljoints on the bottom arm this way round but usually they also have the top balljoint facing downwards, so the hub is trapped between 2 balljoints facing each other. This has both facing up, so both ball joint shoulders and the ball joint cups are taking all the weight of the van :shock:

A big no no in my world of diy mods, and I'm no 'keep it standard' preacher!

 

[j.nathan]

So I would chose welded spindles instead of flipped spindles. That is off course if the welding has been done professionaly.

Greetz

Wim

Just some thinking from Belgium...

Please don't be under the impression that welded spindles are fine if "the welding has been done professionally". Cast iron welds don't break, its the 'heat affected zone' either side of the weld that breaks and weakness in these areas can be very hard and expensive to detect.
I doubt very much if each welded spindle is x-ray-ed or ultra-sounded.
Welded cast iron breaks without warning and is very susceptible to shock loads.

 

[retrokid]

J.Nathan, I think this discussion has been had before regarding welded spindles. The original spindles are "forged and not cast, making for an excellent weld"... Words from the very man himself, Nate of Wagens West.

I suppose this could go on for ever and a day... Does anyone know of any welded spindles that have failed??

 

[j.nathan]

J.Nathan, I think this discussion has been had before regarding welded spindles. The original spindles are "forged and not cast, making for an excellent weld"... Words from the very man himself, Nate of Wagens West.

I suppose this could go on for ever and a day... Does anyone know of any welded spindles that have failed??

Good point. If the original 'forged' spindles are used, i can see no reason why 'an excellent weld' cannot be produced but i would still need documented proof (i.e. non destructive testing) that the welds were sound before using them, common practise in engineering but not practical for the price.
I think the reason VW forged these spindles in the first place was for strength and i can't see how spindles that have been subjected to intense heat (welding) can be as strong as the original forged items.
I have been wrestling with these problems in my mind for a long time and still haven't seen an acceptable solution.
I don't know of any welded spindles that have failed but i don't know of any flipped spindles that have failed either.

 

[Joval]

Some more info here -

http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3524&view=next" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;