turning the engine over without the dizzy cap on

[dubscum]

turning the engine over without the dizzy cap on, what damage will this do ?

i was changing the carb, took the dizzy cap of the get a better reach on the rear carb bolt. bolted it all together, but before i clipped the dizzy cap back on i got distracted, went back to my bus, turned it over for a few minutes thinking i would need to pull petrol through the new carb. But as the bus has been stood the basttery started to slow, so i jumped out to check if everything was on right and noticed i had not clipped the dizzy cap back on. Then it really stuggled to turn over, so i hooked it up to my diesel passat (for half an hour) and it still would turnover. I took the spark plugs out to let the compression out and could turn it by hand by nothing from the key, there is power from the battery all the light are bright and only dim a little when i try to turn it over. have i messed all the timing up ? burt out the starter ? or just ruined my engine.

and yes i know i'm an idiot and should not be allowed to work on it

many thanks for any advise or help
ash

 

[currylager]

Dont beat yourself up mate, you have done nothing wrong. It sounds like the starter motor maybe knackered, but before you try and source another i suggest you clean all the starter connections and the earth to chassis lead on the gearbox too . i do have a spare starter if you are stuck but its unlikely you'll be able to collect it in this weather :lol:

 

[dubscum]

thats what i was hopeing for i'll check it out and if its no good my father-in-law lives in telford :mrgreen:

cheers dude

 

[dubdubz]

as above clean all connections and add vaseline to keep it better for longer! - it maybe the starter motor bush - mine used to be an absolute pig to start when it was hot, and eventually also was crap from cold - the £1 bush fixed everything.soak overnight in oil.

The other thing you can do is do the starter relay mod - as this uses the switch as a 'signal' rather than a current source so the starter will spin better as it has a better current path [potentially!]

http://www.keithandsylvia.co.uk/tech%20pages/starter_wiring_mod.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hth's

 

[dubscum]

thank you

 

[Trikky2]

The other thing you can do is do the starter relay mod - as this uses the switch as a 'signal' rather than a current source so the starter will spin better as it has a better current path [potentially!]

http://www.keithandsylvia.co.uk/tech%20pages/starter_wiring_mod.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hth's

I honestly cannot see the point of this modification !!
There is no significant "current" going from the ignition switch to the starter moters own solenoid. The solenoid is already functioning as a relay and, when it kicks in, the power is supplied to the starter via the heavy duty cables - not the ignition switch! The solenoid is either on or off, there is no halfway position that can be achieved with reduced current from the ignition switch.

If there is a fault in the wiring between the ign switch and the solenoid then fix it! Adding the complication of an additional and unnecessary solenoid is a bodge and a likely scource of reliability problems in future.

 

[dubdubz]

fair enough Trikky - I did it and noticed a difference in my starter performance, could I ask why is the cable from the ignition switch so thick then? as if there is limited current the wire would surely be thinner - isn't it 4.0 or 6.0 ?

not every modification is universally accepted as being '100%', and the only problem I have ever had is where to strap the relay, and make it water resistant.

apologies if my advice was incorrect Dubscum.

 

[young_dubya]

I think the main pint of that mod is it saves your ignition switch the same way has a headlight relay does. It stops the arching across the more expensive part and uses a penny component to take the brutality of the arc. Its a worthwhile and simple modification in my eyes that may save you the cost of an ignition switch in the long run.

My beetle is currently started on a flasher type switch connected from battery to starter (dodgy i know but its a daily and i cant replace the wire until i get anoter car on the road). the switchs last 4-6months before the arcing ruins them.

Just my 2p :mrgreen:

 

[dubscum]

thank you all for the advise

 

[67panel]

make sure rotor arm not damaged,could have taken of locating tut or may have moved dizzy if clamp looseish ,if motor turned over ok before timing might be over advanced,will make it hard to turn over :!:

 

[dandaz]

If your starter turns the engine over ok without the cap on and then slowely with the cap on then your ignition timming is out.....

 

[dandaz]

I honestly cannot see the point of this modification !!
There is no significant "current" going from the ignition switch to the starter moters own solenoid. The solenoid is already functioning as a relay and, when it kicks in, the power is supplied to the starter via the heavy duty cables - not the ignition switch! The solenoid is either on or off, there is no halfway position that can be achieved with reduced current from the ignition switch.

The ignition switch provides 12v to kick the starter in action ,over the years the wire loses it`s voltage so when you turn the key you get nothing ,trouble is you cannot borrow 12v from somewhere else it has the come from the ignition , the extra relay is the simplest way...

 

[the.fordhams]

Hard start relays - cos they're hard to start or that they drive the solenoid harder? Hmm a conundrum?

What I do know is - there is considerable current in the starter motor circuit, hence the fat cables. The current is so high that any small additonal resistance in the path from the battery all the way to the starter motor (and then back through to the battery again via the gearbox casing and more importantly the earthing strap) will start to limit the current going through the starter. If you limit the current the starter will spin slower - actually generate less torque.

Whats this got to do with the solenoid and relay mod? Over the years, and with plenty of arcing on the solenoid contacts (the high current path), you 'may' start to get some contact burn and thus resistance in the high current circuit in the starter itself. Introduce a steadily more lazy solenoid, because its only getting say 10V to actuate it, and the contacts are no longer being smashed together - they are being touched together, thus possibly introducing a small extra resistance to the starter current.

Hence the hard start relay ensures the solenoid is getting all its volts to help it smash together those contacts for a higher starting current. Therefore I think the hard start relay is for making a starter work as it was intended. Make sense?

 

[Trikky2]

The theory is fine. It can compensate for worn or faulty connections, wiring or switches.
It will not stop further deterioration of those faults and therefore IMO its still a bodge.
It treats the symptom - not the cause.