Diary of a virgin (engine rebuilder) - still signs of leaking..

[Termite]

Any help or guidance will most definitely be needed as part of this thread!

Some of you may have seen my threads in tech about My engine just won't idle and My oil looks like glitter. Well after 4 carburettors I've decided to give up on that engine!

I had two "spare" engines in the garage at my Mum's. The condition of them are unknown, both have had various bits borrowed from them over the years, but I know they came out of vehicles at somepoint in the mid 90's. They have sat in the garage or under a tarpaulin in the car port ever since. I have decided to try and rebuild one of these to see if I can get one going before deciding whether to splash out on a brand new VW Heritage engine.

So the two engines in question... Engine A is an AB case engine. Engine B is an AD case engine, but has been previously reconditioned by VW as the case engine number has been ground out and it has the VW recycle stamped into it. I have ran some tests on these engines and the results are...

Engine A (AB)
[*] End float measured at 0.11mm
[*] Leak down compression test results: 20%, 25%, 35%, 25%

Engine B (AD)
[*] End float measured at 0.22mm
[*] Leak down compression test results: 18%, 20%, 18%, couldn't measured as helicoil pulled out the head.

It was probably a bit unfair to run a leakdown test on two engines set for the best part of 20 years, but I couldn't think of a better way to asses them without trying to run them straight up. Based on the end float alone, I have decided to strip all tinware/ancillaries off of Engine A so that I can get to the heads and see whether it is a 1300 or 1600.

As expected it is a 1300 hundred as confirmed by the interior measurements of the cylinders and piston size. I currently have one barrel removed and I expect to remove the others this weekend, as well as removal of the pistons. In the garage, I also have a set of used 1600 barrels and pistons, as well as two pairs of 1600 cylinder heads.

Now the first bit of advice I need... would you just slap these barrels and pistons on and build the engine back up so that it can be run on a bench to see what the engine is actually like? Or would you go further and split the case etc.. I'm working on the basis that just putting these bits I have in the garage on will cost me just time, rather than thinking about doing a ring job, new valves, lapping the valves etc.. and will be good practice for building up a brand new longblock, but am I missing a trick not doing any of that while I'm down to just the case with the rods hanging out?

Current state of Engine A


More obligatory pictures will follow when I can upload some.

Any advice welcome!

 

[atafonso]

IMHO, i would split the case to clean everything and check the condition. It shouldn't cost a lot if bearings are needed and a polish in the crank. Hone the cylinders, get new exhaust valves, lap them then you should have a decent runner. I can help with any advice you need, just call me anytime if you have questions. This way, you will know what is inside your engine and will drive with confidence.
Abel
07951043121

 

[dustrat]

I would do as abel suggested and strip down case. You've done most of hard work so you may as well continue. Give the case a good clean inside and replace bearing as well as oil pressure release valves. When you come to join the case together again I would recommend you get some Gasgacinch to seal the 2 halves together,as well as push rod tube seals and all other gaskets. Better than Hylomar. Get from Heritage £10.50 not cheap but the best.
Robert

 

[Termite]

Cheers for the advice. If I am going to split a case, am I better off splitting the 1600 with more endplay in it (engine B) as the case is drilled for the moustache bar. Or is increased endplay not likely to be fixed with a change of bearings?

 

[paradox]

Cheers for the advice. If I am going to split a case, am I better off splitting the 1600 with more endplay in it (engine B) as the case is drilled for the moustache bar. Or is increased endplay not likely to be fixed with a change of bearings?

You can remove a small amount of end float with shims behind the flywheel
However if it's worn to far then the thrust of the case will need machining to take an oversize bearing
It all depends how much wear there is and if the case has been machined before


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[Termite]

Is this good enough to hone the cylinders?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Brake-Cylinder-Shaft-Honing/dp/B00Q4B9L8G/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1473848472&sr=8-10&keywords=flex+hone+tools" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[paradox]

Is this good enough to hone the cylinders?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Brake-Cylinder-Shaft-Honing/dp/B00Q4B9L8G/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1473848472&sr=8-10&keywords=flex+hone+tools" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't buy any tools or parts yet
You may find the barrels are badly worn or scored once you completely strip the engines.
Your best bet is to strip clean inspect and measure everything
Then decide on the best approach




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[Termite]

Fair point. The 1600 barrels and pistons in the garage looked ok, but I think it would be best to properly inspect them before buying tools in case they are knackered.

Will measuing the internal size with a digital caliper indicator if they are too worn? And how scored is badly scored? Enough that you can see it, or would you need to significantly feel it?

The Tom Wilson book is going to get a good read this week!

 

[paradox]

If you can feel it with your finger nail then I'd replace them
Honing them is just to brake down the glaze and allow the piston rings to bed in.
If your case needs machining and the barrels and Pistons need replacing then it's a good time to go for a capacity increase to 1776


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[Termite]

Yes, I think 1776 is the direction I would be going in if I had to buy a new one.

 

[paradox]

Yes, I think 1776 is the direction I would be going in if I had to buy a new one.

It may work out a fair bit cheaper to have a 1776 built using most of the parts you already have

I'm having a 1776 built using the stock cam and heads and will be running it on a stock single solex
It should have a nice amount of torque right from tick over
Just what you need for a heavy camper


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[atafonso]

Cheers for the advice. If I am going to split a case, am I better off splitting the 1600 with more endplay in it (engine B) as the case is drilled for the moustache bar. Or is increased endplay not likely to be fixed with a change of bearings?

You can remove a small amount of end float with shims behind the flywheel
However if it's worn to far then the thrust of the case will need machining to take an oversize bearing
It all depends how much wear there is and if the case has been machined before


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Depending on how much endplay you have, the case could be fine with no line boring needed. The best bet is to split it, clean everything properly then measure all the parts. If the bearing is moving on the case then you need line boring. It also could be tight on the n1 bearing but have pounding on the n2, which would also needs line boring.
If your crank is bad, maybe spliting the other case would reveal a better crank that could be used.
I would not buy anything at this stage.

Abel

 

[Termite]

Yes, I think 1776 is the direction I would be going in if I had to buy a new one.

It may work out a fair bit cheaper to have a 1776 built using most of the parts you already have

I'm having a 1776 built using the stock cam and heads and will be running it on a stock single solex
It should have a nice amount of torque right from tick over
Just what you need for a heavy camper


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Interesting, I thought you really had to go twin carb with the 1776 and the additonal cost of all of that was putting me off.

The stock single csarb you mention is the 34 PICT 3?

 

[paradox]

No you don't have to run twin carbs and yes the 34 pict 3 from a twin port 1600

If you want to add a more lairy cam and rev outside of the stock rpm range then you would have to upgrade to twin carbs.
Increasing the cubic capacity of the engine along with the long length of the standard intake manifold and the standard cam puts the torque down low to mid range which is what a bus needs.
The yanks build engines bigger than 1776 and run them on stock intakes and carb
They call them stump pullers due to the amount of low down torque they make
Remember there's a difference between power and torque

With a hotter cam,larger valves and large venturies your usable torque will be at a higher rpm
That's not so bad in a light bug but in a heavy bus makes for a difficult drive

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[K@rlos]

No you don't have to run twin carbs and yes the 34 pict 3 from a twin port 1600

If you want to add a more lairy cam and rev outside of the stock rpm range then you would have to upgrade to twin carbs.
Increasing the cubic capacity of the engine along with the long length of the standard intake manifold and the standard cam puts the torque down low to mid range which is what a bus needs.
The yanks build engines bigger than 1776 and run them on stock intakes and carb
They call them stump pullers due to the amount of low down torque they make
Remember there's a difference between power and torque

With a hotter cam,larger valves and large venturies your usable torque will be at a higher rpm
That's not so bad in a light bug but in a heavy bus makes for a difficult drive

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Twin carbs and a decent exhaust are easy performance, the more air and fuel you get in and the quicker you get the gases out will improve power and torque, FACT. I built a stock 1600 twinport, all it had was Weber 34 ICT's, 4 into 1 exhaust and polished exhaust ports. Wasn't a monster BUT the power increase was noticeable, think it made 65hp once jetted and set up on the rolling road. I'd have that build over a 1776 with a Solex, they are the limiting component on a Volkswagen engine. Only thing I'd do different on that 1600 now is fit an Engle w100 cam which are superb torque cams for buses.

 

[Termite]

Well steady progress this weekend. Barrels and pistons removed. The pulley taken off with a set of pullers fresh from Toolstation (those things make it 100 times easier, should've bought them years ago. The flywheel wasn't quite as easy... Note to self, make sure you loosen the flywheel nut with everything on the engine next time! Had to put two g-clamps on the bench and strap it down and use a 3/4" breaker bar to get it off.

Had all the nuts of the engine ready to split it, but couldn't go that far as I don't have the oil pump puller. So that is on order ready for Friday.

 

[atafonso]

Loosen all the case nuts/ bolts and the oil pump will be easier to come off.
Abel

 

[atafonso]

Sorry, didnt' pay attention at the pic, you've done it already :mrgreen:

 

[megaaircooledvw]

A new oil pump will be needed,so just get the old one out.

 

[Termite]

A new oil pump will be needed,so just get the old one out.

I didn't think I would need one, but might be worth ordering one with the puller to get the order over 35 quid.