just can't cure it

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streetboy

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It seems an age since I have been trying to sort out the slight hesitation on my bus, and I just can't sort it :(
let me explain whats going on. This has happened on two engines now, one that b*ggered up and the one I rebuilt using a mix and match of my old engine case and the knackered one.
At around 25/30mph I get what can only be described as a slight hesitation, if I stick my foot down it drives through it. Its worse if I hang on in say third gear and is more pronounced.

This weekend I have adjusted the valves (on countless occassions) to a gliding 0.006 fit knowing they were ok anyway. New plugs and gapped up right at 28th, changed the carb, fuel filter, the coil, the HT lead (runs electronic ignition) checked with easy start for air leakd on manifold, carb etc, adjusted the carbs per book and a range there after, and so it goes on, but still plays up at 25/30ish mph :?

The only things not to be changed that have been on both engines, are the leads that were brand new and the fuel pump. Interestingly I spoke to the owner of cool air yesterday who lives up the road and he said he recently read an article about fuel pumps (mechanical) and pressureBit of a long shot but could it possibly be the fuel pump is worn and not delivering at certain revs and load? it has been fitted to both engines.

Could it be the live feed to the coil?

I really am at the end of my tether and need some help with it. I would like to get someone local to me who knows these engines to give their opinion and have a drive of it. So if anyone in the Surrey area fancies a look and drive, please do!
 
Thinking really hard about all my trials and tribulations, the problem can vary depending on carb adjustment, does not go but completely, but does vary. Remember its done the same wih two carbs. Could the fuel pump really be a fault?
 
Just read through all the things you have done to try to cure this, and it seems like you have covered most of the normal procedures already, just a couple of questions though.

Are you running a stock air filter and does it have this problem all the time or just when its hot?

Also which dizzy are you running and if its a vac advance, is it working properly ?

Thanks

Matt
 
Hi Matt, remember I have been at this for a long time and have entered the realms of not knowing my are from my elbow, can't see the wood for the trees :|

Now it would appear to become more hesitant the longer I have driven. The cooler the morning the better it runs. Drove to work this morning some 20 mins and it was quite smooth to start, but as I neared work it started to hesitate a little bit. I would say definatley seems smoother from cold. Leaving work and a fair bit warmer it didn't seem so smooth and the hesitation was worse. (I have the thermostat connected so will make sure it is set to fully open)

Did have a 009 but I am running a rebuilt SVDA I got from a guy on here, sucking on the pipe it was moving, but how can I check if its functioning as it really should?

Removed the pancake effort and replaced with later stock plastic type air box with paper filter. I have an oil bath vacuum type coming.
 
Fuel starvation/evaporation as the engine gets warm coupled with a worn pump...
 
Hiya Slammed, so a mix of the two? worn pump and getting too hot? or is warm enough for a worn pump?

Thanks fellas, I desparatley wanted to sort this myself but have lost my way. :roll:
 
It definitely sounds fuel related, for the sake of a few quid I'd change your pump, fuel filter(s) and fuel lines, and run the line as far away from the engine as possible (I used to run mine so they hang from the ceiling of the engine bay and drops down to the pump). Take the old pump apart and see if the diaphram is good, and see if you have dirt in the fuel filter or/and in the carb bowl.

Does your engine get noticeably hot after a run? (is the dipstick too hot to touch?)

I had fuel starvation problems on my old notch and i cured it with an electric pump... But thats only really putting a plaster on the situation and if it is getting that hot you need to be figuring why. (less likely if it happened on two engines though).

Thinking about it, does it have this flat spot at the same amount of revs in every gear?
 
It does sound like a fuelling problem for sure, either like Slammed has said, starvation.

Or maybe a problem with the choke...

Is the throttle stop set correctly and functioning as this would over fuel at light revs but obviously putting your foot through it would overcome it like you have said previously.

Where in Surrey are you ?
 
Slammed said:
It definitely sounds fuel related, for the sake of a few quid I'd change your pump, fuel filter(s) and fuel lines, and run the line as far away from the engine as possible (I used to run mine so they hang from the ceiling of the engine bay and drops down to the pump). Take the old pump apart and see if the diaphram is good, and see if you have dirt in the fuel filter or/and in the carb bowl.

Does your engine get noticeably hot after a run? (is the dipstick too hot to touch?)

I had fuel starvation problems on my old notch and i cured it with an electric pump... But thats only really putting a plaster on the situation and if it is getting that hot you need to be figuring why. (less likely if it happened on two engines though).

Thinking about it, does it have this flat spot at the same amount of revs in every gear?


Fuel starvation = lean mix = very hot engine.

Good point with the dip stick test!
 
Ok guys, dip stick is not red hot, and can be withdrawn after a long run.

Revs freely at idle/tick over with no blips. Pull away in first ok, then at certain revs (no tach)2nd, 3rd and not so noticable in 4th it will hesitate more so when I hold the throttle steady and more on an incline under load. If I give it some gas then it pulls through it and flies.

throttle stop set warm, flap upright, screw backed off and turned till it nips a peice of notebook paper, 1/2 turn in to set?

New pump, pedastal and rod on order, and I will re-route the fuel hose, it is over the dizzy with the filter inline at present, should it be before the pump?

SVDA set at 30 btdc @ 3500 vac off and carb plugged

Keep the questions coming as I might remember something as we go. One things for sure, there is an answer there somewhere ;)
 
Yeah, too hot to touch!

Fuel filter should be before the pump, but more importantly GET IT OUT OF THE ENGINE BAY! Fit it under the fuel tank/before it comes through the tinware into the engine bay.

Good luck!
 
will do slammed ;) talking of filters, I noticed some air going through the filter at idle, and looked like a bit more as I revved, is this normal?

I'll fit this lot and reset the carb again as per book and report back in a few days.

at least I know its not running too hot :)
 
Below is an exhaustive list of things that could be causing your problems

Its quite large.....

Stolen from here http://www.vw-resource.com/hestate4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


* Valve Clearance: The Haynes Manual indicates that incorrect valve clearance may cause hesitation.

* Intake Manifold: Two considerations regarding the intake manifold: Pre-heat and air inleakage.

o Pre-Heat - If the manifold pre-heat tubes (also called heat risers) don't get hot, fuel from the accelerator pump just "lays" in the manifold and doesn't vaporize. Drive the car around the block and then feel the pre-heat tubes. They should be hot over their entire length (use caution -- they should be VERY hot). Several things may prevent the pre-heat tubes from being heated -

+ The tubes may be clogged with carbon deposits. See our procedure for Clearing a Blocked Heat Riser.

+ The muffler is not creating enough pressure difference.

+ The heat riser flanges on the exhaust header may not have been drilled through into the header to allow the flow of exhaust gases (either direct from one side to the other or pulsing back and forth). If this is the case, you will have to remove the exhaust header and drill through the flanges.

o Air Inleakage - If air is somehow leaking into the intake manifold downstream of the carburetor, the fuel mixture will be too lean and the car will not run properly. The system is easily checked for leaks by 1) choking the carburetor with the palm of your hand over the throat (if the engine immediately dies, there is no leak), and 2) spraying starter fluid (ether) on every possible leak point and listening for changes in the engine speed as the ether is sucked into the manifold. For more information, please see our Air Inleakage Discussion.

One critical area that is not very accessible is where the manifold attaches to the engine itself. Spraying with the straw applicator that comes with the starter fluid usually does the trick, as you can then get the spray closer without it dispersing too much. (On single port engines, this connection has a large copper 'washer' as a gasket, and this gets compressed slightly when tightened. On dual-port engines, this gasket is a flat paper type, which is easily damaged.)

On later models the intake manifold is in two pieces, joined by rubber connectors with hose clamps. Loose clamps at these points can cause air inleakage.

* Vacuum Advance Distributor: There are two types of vacuum distributor -- single vacuum and double vacuum. Make sure that the vacuum system is operating correctly by sucking on the vacuum lead(s) and looking at the movable points-plate inside the distributor to see if it moves to the relevant stop. If you now pinch off the hose, the plate should stay near the stop. If it drifts back to the centre, the vacuum chamber has a leak in it.



* Incorrect Ignition Timing: There has been a great deal of discussion regarding ignition timing with different distributor/engine combinations. With the 009 distributor on the 1600cc engine, the proper timing is to set the MAXIMUM advance at 28-30 degrees at 3500rpm, and then check the static timing, which should be between 5-8 degrees BTDC (the 009 distributors vary a bit in total advance). The single-vacuum distributors use 7.5 degrees BTDC - static timing on 1500/1600s, and 10 degrees BTDC for 1200s. The proper timing setting for the vacuum advance distributor with two vacuum hoses is 5 degrees retarded (ATDC) - set with the engine running at idle revs. Timing changes as the point gap (dwell angle) is changed, so make sure the points are properly set (50 degrees plus/minus 2 degrees) before setting the timing.

* Spark Plugs: The Haynes Manual indicates that fouled spark plugs may cause hesitation.

Rob Boardman suggested the use of NGK plugs to help with the hesitation problem - NGK is the world's biggest manufacturer of spark plugs. In the VW they are reported to have a greater tolerance to the changes in cylinder head temperature changes - that is, they have a good "heat range."

I used to use Champions (L88s, then L86YC I think from memory) but changed to Bosch many years ago when I was told that Champions had a rougher thread on them, which tended to cut the aluminum heads out after a while, and were easy to cross thread. The Champions did work just as well though, and that was years ago - they may have changed the threads by now.

I now use NGKs with great success, after they were recommended to me by a VW mechanic with well over 20 years experience. The correct NGK plug is a B5HS for the 1/2-inch heads, and B5ES for the 3/4-inch heads (Type 4s, and replacement new factory heads from Brazil/Mexico for beetles).

If you can find the 'grooved electrode' type, the numbers are B5HY, and B5EY. The grooved center electrode is supposed to generate the spark at the sides of the electrode, rather than burying it in the gap - better at lighting lean mixtures, and better at propagating the flame. The grooved plugs could conceivably reduce the 009 distributor flat spot a bit.

* Carburetor: Spitting/sputtering/cracking is an indication of the fuel/air mixture being too lean. The engine speed (RPM) at which the problem occurs tells which jet needs to be changed. Test the engine's performance through the range of 1000-4000 RPM, paying attention to steady throttle position through this range.

o If the engine runs good at 3000-4000 rpm but stumbles elsewhere, the correct main jet is being used, and the problem lies somewhere else. If the hesitation problem occurs at higher rpm (2500-4000), a larger main jet needs to be installed. If the main jet doesn't solve it, try the accelerator pump (see below).

o If the stumbling occurs at 2000 RPMs and lower, a larger idle jet may need to be installed to enrichen the mixture. (Don't go much beyond 65, however.)

o If you have an 009 centrifugal-advance distributor, a larger main jet may sometimes help to compensate for the flat spot inherent with this distributor. The standard jet is 127.5 (in a 34PICT/3 carburetor); try a 130 or even larger.

While you're into the carburetor, it would be a good time to overhaul the carburetor and install a new kit. (See our Carburetor Overhaul Procedure.) Check the float; if there is a dimple where the needle valve impinges on it, replace it. After reinstalling the carburetor, make sure to tune it correctly. Idle speed may cause hesitation if it is improperly set. (Please see our articles on tuning One-Screw Carburetors and Two-Screw Carburetors.

* Automatic Choke: Make sure the automatic choke is working properly (wire to the coil attached, choke properly adjusted and opens the butterfly valve in the top of the carburetor as the engine warms up). See our Automatic Choke Adjustment Procedure.

* Idle Cut-off Valve: Make sure the idle cut-off valve is properly seated, electrically connected and working. Test the valve by removing the wire, turning on the key, and touching the wire back to the connector on the valve. You should hear a distinct "clicking" sound; no "click" means "replace."

* Accelerator Pump Faulty or Out of Adjustment: If the engine stumbles when you open the throttle, they problem could lie with the accelerator pump, or it could mean that either the main jet or the idle just is too small. Check to make sure that the pump delivery tube is pointed directly down the carburetor throat, and check to make sure that it discharges fuel when the throttle are is pulled down sharply. If it doesn't, it is likely that the accelerator pump needs to be overhauled (i.e., diaphragm replaced). If the pump is discharging fuel down the carburetor throat, check the discharge volume (see our Accelerator Pump Adjustment Procedure). For the 34-PICT/3 carburetor, the squirt volume should be 1.45-1.75 mL. Adjust it per the procedure. If you are running an 009 distributor, adjusting the accelerator pump to full stroke helps to minimize the flat spot that is inherent to this distributor.

* Clogged Fuel Filter: Most air-cooled VWs are fairly old, and there is a good possibility that the fuel tank may be rusty on the inside. This rust can clog the fuel filter(s) and contribute to the hesitation problem. Some VW fuel pumps have a small fuel filter under a brass bolt head in the rear (rear is rear of car) side of the pump - near the fan belt. If your car has one of these pumps, check this filter too. (See our Fuel Filter Service Procedure.)

Someone recommended that we remove and clean the gas tank. We have since done this, and our experience is documented at Fuel Tank Removal and Refurbishment.

* Fuel: According to Rob Boardman, the hesitation problem is almost certainly a lean-burn thing. VWs like a fractionally rich mix -- they don't like lean burn conditions. A larger main jet in the carburetor will provide a richer mix and may help the problem. Also, Rob advises the use of a brand-name fuel with at least 91 octane (more aromatics and less methyl tertiary-butyl ether - MTBE - to achieve the higher octane. Only the 1200cc engines and the newest low-compression factory (Mex/Brazilian) engines are happy on 87 octane gasoline.

Dave's son accidentally made an interesting discovery that may well have contributed to their hesitation problem. His VW was almost out of gas, so he went to the gas station to fill up. The last time he gassed up the brand-name station was closed, so he filled the tank with 92 octane at the local convenience store. On this occasion as he was on his way to the gas station (brand-name) with a near-empty tank the car died at every corner; once the tank was full with the good stuff the car ran fine.

Some more data points would be helpful, but the apparent lesson is that the cheap stuff is just that. The more expensive brand-name gas is higher quality and the Bug seems to like it a lot more. The VW seems to be sensitive to the quality of the gas.

Someone wrote regarding possible contamination of the fuel - When you run the tank down near empty you are also allowing any sediments and general crap to enter your fuel lines. Almost any gas tank in any car has depression areas in the bottom of the gas tank. The crap and water that has condensed is supposed to settle into these low areas and not enter the system.

Regarding octane levels, someone reported that his VW has the most pep when he uses 94 octane gas. He tries to avoid convenience store gas stations, having experienced poor running when he filled up there. He also reports success with the use of a fuel dryer in the gasoline. This may help remove the water and some of the crap that might be fouling the fuel lines, carburetor, etc. Isopropyl alcohol is said to be superior to methyl alcohol for this purpose.

Rob advised me that leaving the car out under damp conditions overnight may result in condensation in the fuel tank, resulting in water droplets in the fuel. He says that the only sure way to avoid condensation is the aircraft way - fill the tank up to the brim every night so there is no airspace above the fuel and thus no opportunity for water vapor in the air to condense in the tank overnight.

We came to the conclusion that the hesitation problem may be caused by the fuel in one of several ways: 1) the gas is poor quality or low octane; 2) the tank is rusty and is depositing corrosion products in the gas, and/or 3) there is water in the gas, most likely as a result of condensation. All of these would make the hesitation problem worse when the tank is near empty.
 
Maybe there's a stone under your throttle peddle
:lol: I wish!! :lol:

mattyd72, I have read this before and as you say its quite extensive :shock:

I just took the bus up the road to have another feel. Starts off ok but soon enough the hesitation will kick in. Deffo occurs around 25/30mph especially under load up a hill at a steady throttle, floor it and it clears. As a note, the choke element was red hot to the touch, is that normal? I note also that with the engine warm the hot air flap in partially closed but then opens when revved. I know it works in relation running but is this ok?
Mind you it did the same with the pancake filter so don't think its an issue.

When running the 009 I closed the hole in the butterfly, maxed the acc/pump and upped the main to x130 and the idle was 55, now back to a 127 and 55
Its had another carb fitted anyhow which I refurbished and deffo was clean, and made no difference.

So, I'm giving it one more go, fit pump & rod, change fuel lines, move filter (hum) reset carb,
I just can't imagine the pump will sort it but you never know.

Failing that I'll have to live with it untill vanfest and get some heads on it there ;)
 
I had something very similar in my 1776cc engined bug. Turned out to be fuel delivery issue due to blocked up filter in the electric fuel pump.

As others have said, check all fuel lines and filters and then tank too. Filter in there (if you have one) may be restricting flow of fuel to carb.

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
 
I tried a new filter and still no good. A guy stateside removed and flushed the tank out as the bus had sat for 5 years in a barn.

I learned today from a guy at work that there is a vw aircooled mechanic just around the corner. He said if the new pump etc does not cure it he will have a look for me, he sounded right up for it :D
 
Have you had the carb apart recently, remember (vaguely) that you can get issues with the float sticking (or not reset correctly after a re-build) and the hesitation can be caused by not enough fuel being pumped to the carb (either the pump or the carb float)
Worth stripping the carb down and getting a re-furb kit and for the sake of a tenner i would try a new pump (i might even have 1 knocking around you could try) before paying your hard earned out to some mechanic that you dont really know
 
Have you had the carb apart recently, remember (vaguely) that you can get issues with the float sticking (or not reset correctly after a re-build) and the hesitation can be caused by not enough fuel being pumped to the carb (either the pump or the carb float)
Worth stripping the carb down and getting a re-furb kit and for the sake of a tenner i would try a new pump (i might even have 1 knocking around you could try) before paying your hard earned out to some mechanic that you dont really know

Hiya Froggy, thanks for the offer and didn't realize your so close to me. Carb is new and I tried another refurbished carb on the weekend and identicle problem.
The Guy was going to just have a look, not as job, he found it an interesting problem, He comes accross a really nice and enthusiastic guy who loves his aircooled v-dubs.
Pump etc here tomoz so will crack on when I get home.
 

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