123 dizzy

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I bought one of these after struggling to eliminate flat spots and hot running but I have a 1776 with twin Kadrons.

I found I could get by with a 009 if I was willing to live with the binary pickup when coming onto the gas from a trailing throttle but I wanted smooth accelleration without over-fuelling compromises etc. I tried an SVDA that I bought at a swap meet but it ran the engine way too hot (tons of advance). I was on the point of giving up and sticking with the 009 when I pitched in for a 123 and all my problems went away.

The main thing is (as I understand it) is that it ignores the linear volume of vacuum signal to apply the advance and instead reads when there is signal and calculates current revs to determine what advance curve to apply (and there are about 16 curve options I think). I think that was where my problem lay - wrong vac signal.

So with your setup in mind (stock) wouldn't you be as well to go Bosch/VW SVDA? What is it you are trying to cure, flat spots?

Downside of a 123 is that I have heard of units failing - dying instantly and leaving you at the roadside. That is why I carry my 009 with me as a spare :)
 
In all honesty, I don't know why I want a 123 apart from the fact I have had two svda and they have let me down. The 009 works fine but last year I had issues with what initially seemed like the coil or a lead braking down. Changed all that this winter so waiting to see if its cured when I put it back on the road. If I get the same symptoms I am thinking the 009 is braking down or is effecting the running in some way with an intermittent fault. I have read that a 009 can do this as they are a cheap alternative but I have no evidence myself.

I am just in trail and error mode.
 
Get a genuine German 009, fit a petronix kit and forget about it. I run this set up on both my 1200 beetle and the hi-po 2110 stroker in my bus. Both drive fine and both have never let me down.
 
Not entirely convinced by the 123 distributors with the selectable ignition curves. Regardless of the curve your always likely to be making a compromise somewhere, I created this guide http://forum.earlybay.com/viewtopic.php?t=72412 for the Aldon amethyst module, which will work with your current 009(with a few mods) and allow for much more accurate adjustment of the timing curve.
My suggestion would be invest in that, or something similar (at about the same cost as a 123) and book some time on a Rolling road to get it set up properly or follow my guide to do it yourself.

Distributors themselves like the 009 are highly unlikely to cause intermittent faults, the ignition module or points inside them are the likely cause. Distributors are dumb bits of metal with some weights and springs in at the end of the day!

Sent from my Wileyfox Swift 2 using Tapatalk

 
I have one for my 1776 although still to fit it yet so can't comment on reliability or performance for now. I decided to get it set up on a rolling road so I don't cock anything up. From the research I did they seem like a good solid bit of kit with not to many bad stories considering how long they have been about.
 
I have one.

Originally I had a 009 which I couldn't get rid of the flat spot on. Then went through 3 different SVDAs (all new - 2 electronic and 1 points). Not happy with any (perhaps just unlucky). I was in conversation with Jim Calvert at Stateside and he said he no longer fitted new dizzys but now looked out for original cores and refurbished. He said that the quality and number of balance springs on the new ones were in his opinion rubbish and so the balance of the advance was all out. He was not happy with the pertronix ones either as he had had a number of failures. As I couldn't source an original SVDA to refurb, I went for a 123. No complaints at all so far. Smooth pick up with no flat spot and no problems at all ... done about 3000 to date. My motor is stock 1600 twin port.
 
I've got one fitted to my 2054. Had issues with SVDAs and 009s. Accuspark were even worse, couldn't get a consistent advance curve, and the baseplate was bent on one new one.
Went for a 123-R-V, had it set up on a rolling road, and been issue free for a couple of years and getting on for 8k miles.
I'll fit one to the Type 3 eventually as well.
 
Rlepecha's guidance seems perhaps the technically best option, but having had a 009, and an accuspark I've found my 123 to be fantastic simple addition on a stock engine. With a cleaned carb, I've got easy starting hot or cold, steady idle, smooth take up, a sensitive throttle and best power of what I've tried. I carry my old accuspark as a spare. No reliability issues so far, but only about 8000miles on it. Would buy it again
 
Bearing in mind 123 provide dizzys for many other classic cars (about 90 different makes on their website) it might be useful to check out a few other forums to see what the reliability and performance experience has been (I will have a scout around and report back if I get some free time).

I don't know anything about the Aldon Amethyst that Rplecha mentions but I know that 123 also do a programmable/mappable version of the dizzy too, in case fine tuning is what you're after and there is a cost differential between the 2. Just food for thought, I have no reccommendation either way!
 
Zcat7 said:
Bearing in mind 123 provide dizzys for many other classic cars (about 90 different makes on their website) it might be useful to check out a few other forums to see what the reliability and performance experience has been (I will have a scout around and report back if I get some free time).

I don't know anything about the Aldon Amethyst that Rplecha mentions but I know that 123 also do a programmable/mappable version of the dizzy too, in case fine tuning is what you're after and there is a cost differential between the 2. Just food for thought, I have no reccommendation either way!
The cost differential is about £170... The 123Tune is approx. £350 and amethyst is £180 from SimonBBC.

The 123VW-R pre-set ignition curve dizzy is £260.

The cost of a 123 dizzy is ridiculous, when you consider the cost of a crank fired ignition system, which is much superior in terms of spark voltage and accuracy, is nearly the same as the 123Tune.

That's my opinion, with the 123 ignitions your paying 100's of pounds for what is basically a shiny stock dizzy with a switchable petronix/accuspark module...

Sent from my Wileyfox Swift 2 using Tapatalk

 
Well that appears to be 123 priced out of the mappable market! :)
But hang on, is the Amethyst shiny..? :lol:
 
That's my opinion, with the 123 ignitions your paying 100's of pounds for what is basically a shiny stock dizzy with a switchable petronix/accuspark module...

I have to admit I am not up to speed on all the technicalities. However, one of my main reasons for giving the 123 a go following on from Jim Calvert's comments (I should say Jim didn't pass an opinion on the 123 himself but said Dan at vintage speed swore by them), was that it wasn't a stock mechanism.

MAINTENANCE FREE TIMING

In a 123ignition, all moving parts – like the original points, the centrifugal weights, the springs, the bearings and the vacuum-diaphragm – have been replaced with just one moving part: the central shaft with the rotor. The internal electronics provide the right advance and the optimum dwell-angle throughout the rev. range to maintain peak energy and peak performance. There is no wear altering the timing of the 123ignition: once set, you’ll never have to worry about it again!

SIXTEEN ADVANCE CURVES

With a little switch – see picture – behind an opening in the bottom-face of the billet-housing, you can select the best advance-curve for your engine. Why? Well simply because many different advance-curves were prescribed by car-manufacturers. You buy one 123ignition, but you get sixteen different distributors!

SPARK BALANCING

Spark Balancing is an advanced technology normally used in Formula 1, where engine speeds are tremendously high. This technique is built into the 123ignition. Its microprocessor constantly monitors the amount of energy contributed by each individual cylinder. Assume for example that the compression of one cylinder differs from the others. The motion of the flywheel would be less smooth, and so is the motion of the camshaft. The 123ignition detects this, and adjusts the timing of each cylinder individually. This results in a much quieter engine, more power and less wear.

AUTOMATIC DWELL CONTROL

A mechanical distributor has a fixed dwell-angle, sometimes resulting in overheated coils at low speeds, weaker sparks and misfiring at high speeds. Why? An ignition coil only needs a couple of milliseconds to charge, but with a fixed dwell-angle these are ”overcharged” many times when idling, resulting in… overheated coils! At high speeds the fixed dwell angle tends to leave too little time to fully charge the coil, resulting in… weaker sparks and misfiring! The 123ignition measures the amount of current flowing into the coil, in such a way that the strongest possible spark is guaranteed at all engine-speeds, whilst keeping the coil cool. Also to prevent coil overheating, the power to the coil is cut-off as soon as the engine stops.

A summary of all the advantages of the 123 ignition:

16 user selectable electronic advance curves,
Smooth engine torque curve,
Attractive ”original” look,
Less emissions,
Better starting,
Maintenance-free,
Simple installation,
Variable dwell-angle,
Better fuel consumption,
Stronger spark at all speeds,
Easy timing: with built-in LED, and
Spark balancing: less noise & more power.


I know that there is a large dosage of sales speel in this, but for me the change from the springs/weight/balences was the main factor given my experience with the other SVDA's I have tried. To date I haven't regretted the change ... fingers crossed.
 
Raggles said:
That's my opinion, with the 123 ignitions your paying 100's of pounds for what is basically a shiny stock dizzy with a switchable petronix/accuspark module...

I have to admit I am not up to speed on all the technicalities. However, one of my main reasons for giving the 123 a go following on from Jim Calvert's comments (I should say Jim didn't pass an opinion on the 123 himself but said Dan at vintage speed swore by them), was that it wasn't a stock mechanism.

MAINTENANCE FREE TIMING

In a 123ignition, all moving parts – like the original points, the centrifugal weights, the springs, the bearings and the vacuum-diaphragm – have been replaced with just one moving part: the central shaft with the rotor. The internal electronics provide the right advance and the optimum dwell-angle throughout the rev. range to maintain peak energy and peak performance. There is no wear altering the timing of the 123ignition: once set, you’ll never have to worry about it again!

SIXTEEN ADVANCE CURVES

With a little switch – see picture – behind an opening in the bottom-face of the billet-housing, you can select the best advance-curve for your engine. Why? Well simply because many different advance-curves were prescribed by car-manufacturers. You buy one 123ignition, but you get sixteen different distributors!

SPARK BALANCING

Spark Balancing is an advanced technology normally used in Formula 1, where engine speeds are tremendously high. This technique is built into the 123ignition. Its microprocessor constantly monitors the amount of energy contributed by each individual cylinder. Assume for example that the compression of one cylinder differs from the others. The motion of the flywheel would be less smooth, and so is the motion of the camshaft. The 123ignition detects this, and adjusts the timing of each cylinder individually. This results in a much quieter engine, more power and less wear.

AUTOMATIC DWELL CONTROL

A mechanical distributor has a fixed dwell-angle, sometimes resulting in overheated coils at low speeds, weaker sparks and misfiring at high speeds. Why? An ignition coil only needs a couple of milliseconds to charge, but with a fixed dwell-angle these are ”overcharged” many times when idling, resulting in… overheated coils! At high speeds the fixed dwell angle tends to leave too little time to fully charge the coil, resulting in… weaker sparks and misfiring! The 123ignition measures the amount of current flowing into the coil, in such a way that the strongest possible spark is guaranteed at all engine-speeds, whilst keeping the coil cool. Also to prevent coil overheating, the power to the coil is cut-off as soon as the engine stops.

A summary of all the advantages of the 123 ignition:

16 user selectable electronic advance curves,
Smooth engine torque curve,
Attractive ”original” look,
Less emissions,
Better starting,
Maintenance-free,
Simple installation,
Variable dwell-angle,
Better fuel consumption,
Stronger spark at all speeds,
Easy timing: with built-in LED, and
Spark balancing: less noise & more power.


I know that there is a large dosage of sales speel in this, but for me the change from the springs/weight/balences was the main factor given my experience with the other SVDA's I have tried. To date I haven't regretted the change ... fingers crossed.


Correct, its not a stock advance mechanism.

So to clarify, its essentially a stock shiny dizzy with the advance system welded up and the vac can removed. In reality, these items are just omitted from the system all together, but that's the idea..
The advance is controlled electronically, in a near identical method to the amethyst.. The 009 I am using to trigger the amethyst on my bus has the advance weights removed and the mechanism welded to the shaft.

In case any one is interested, I will be at the Early Bay camp out later this year and you can have a look at my set up..

Sent from mTalk
 
That sounds interesting.

So ... the Amethyst is a DIY solution quite similar to the 123 at a more palatable cost?

If so, good to have up ones sleeve if the 123 fails. If repairing the 123 proves costly, presumably in such a case you could use the 123 core and fit the amethyst much like the welded up 009?
 
Raggles said:
That sounds interesting.

So ... the Amethyst is a DIY solution quite similar to the 123 at a more palatable cost?

If so, good to have up ones sleeve if the 123 fails. If repairing the 123 proves costly, presumably in such a case you could use the 123 core and fit the amethyst much like the welded up 009?
DIY solution to the 123Tune yes. But external to the distributor.

I'm not entirely sure you could trigger the amethyst from the 123 dizzy, I haven't looked at one in detail. I assume the 123 electronic module is self contained and cannot be swapped for points or such if it goes wrong? It would just become an expensive paperweight without the 123 module.

The amethyst can be fired from points or petronix/accuspark or similar in any distributor, which means if the amethyst module itself stops working you can simply rewire the trigger set up to just fire the coil normally; albeit with constant ignition advance (7.5 degrees in my case) but that's a simple get me home or to a safe location to swap the dizzy situation.

Sent from my Wileyfox Swift 2 using Tapatalk

 
Hi Jinx

I have a 123 … vacuum model I'm yet to fit , if your happy to pay postage i can send it up to you, to try , or I'm in guildford if your down this way and want to pick up .

I Will need it back before end of Feb though.

Chico
 
Cheers for the offer. Van is tucked up until March so will decline. It's first run out will be down the M4 so any issues I may still have will become very apparent. Just bought a new pulley showing TDC degrees etc to get the timing nailed down. I'm not overly worried it just annoys me
 

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