1776 engine build quieries.

[Pete B]

Before long I am going to need a replacement engine and am thinking that putting together a 1776 version would be a good option whilst at it.
So, despite having a year or twos' experience (ok, 30 plus...) I have next to no knowledge of big bore or stroker motors, therefore need to ask some fundamental questions.
My initial thought was simply to rebuild the used 1600 TP I have in the garage but with a 90.5 bore and bolt on a pair of 34 ICT Webbers. Maybe clean up the ports a bit, but no lightening or balancing, no hot cam, no 8-dowling the flywheel or other such extravagances. Think an external oil cooler and cartridge filter a wise move.
I am not looking for huge power gains or smoking it up the strip, just a little bit more than there is now. A bit like swapping your 1.6 Golf for a 1.8, a bit more torque and less of a feeling of working the engine harder than I'm comfortable with. I am quite gentle and caring of my engine, like to cruise at less than 3500rpm on a light throttle so would not be thrashing it.
Obviously I appreciate that balanced assemblies will run smoother and last longer, but how much benefit are some of the other often mentioned mods, 1.4 ratio rockers for instance?
What things are particularly relevant to a Type 1 engine please? It's a tad embarassing asking such questions given my background, but hey, years ago we just thrashed the living daylights out of them then went down the scrappy and got another engine for £30 and bunged that in until it broke....
Thanks folks.

 

[sparkywig]

Great minds Pete.

Can I just hop on board this thread and ask whether the original tinware will need adjusting to fit?
Is there anything else to consider?


I've acquired a pair of 94mm cut sp heads for £25 and am thinking about a 1915 build on my single port with re-jetted 34's.... Sorry Pete

 

[Pete B]

No worries! :lol:
Have thought of 92 and 94mm bores, but the 'doubting thomas' in me keeps shouting 'cooling problems' and 'thin cylinder walls'. The flipside being I seem to have heard lots of good things recently regarding 1776 so have been drawn in that direction. Mind you, Graham L (Midland Early Bay) has an 1835 in his shop bus and loves it! (I believe)
Big bore SP is unusual isn't it? Good on ya for doing so, but at £25 it has to be done anyway doesn't it?
Not a criticism, a question. Going so oversquare, will that not make it more revvy than torquey? It is torque we need in a bus most. As said a question, I am trying to learn what works here.

 

[dubdubz]

Pete

the crux is budget I'm afraid.

for me full flow and therefore adding a filter is sensible - it means that in theory you can go longer between services - no idea as I'm yet to get to 30 miles let alone 3000!
I would get a counter weighted crank and get the bottom end balanced - it doesn't cost that much [think it was around £100 by JMR plus postage to scotland], and this means it will run loads smoother and will just be longer living due to less bearing wear, and that's why I went 1745, as I had aspirations of going large later! so I bought a 76 cw crank as a 69cw is similar money from memory, then bolted on 85.5's.
34 ICTs will work ok on a 1776, as will 36 Dells.

My bus will be running soon 2 weeks ish- just in the tuning phase with jets etc right now but you are welcome to try it for feel [ a 1776 is similar torq / power ]

 

[dubdubz]

No worries! :lol:
Have thought of 92 and 94mm bores, but the 'doubting thomas' in me keeps shouting 'cooling problems' and 'thin cylinder walls'. The flipside being I seem to have heard lots of good things recently regarding 1776 so have been drawn in that direction. Mind you, Graham L (Midland Early Bay) has an 1835 in his shop bus and loves it! (I believe)
Big bore SP is unusual isn't it? Good on ya for doing so, but at £25 it has to be done anyway doesn't it?
Not a criticism, a question. Going so oversquare, will that not make it more revvy than torquey? It is torque we need in a bus most. As said a question, I am trying to learn what works here.

I've had long conversations with John Maher and the torque thing, the key is in the valve train and where the revs, that's why a 1776 with a near to stock cam will have the power in the range expected as opposed to a top end screamer. Torq is closely linked to CC, which is why a 1915 [if the cam is right ] feels torqeyer[sp] than a 1600! It went over my head a lot of it, but the end result was the cam and the valvetrain decides when the power is on ie what rev range, keep the revs low and you get a torqey engine [ well that was my understanding!]

you can get thick wall 92's of course, turned down so they fit a 90.5 hole on the case, Laurie Petitt isn't keen on the taking cases out to 94 so perhaps this is the way forward. of course you do have issues on stroker or non stroker pistons dependant on what crank is chosen....

honestly it's a mine field!

but it has to be directly connected to cost and what you want in terms of performance/ what driving you will mainly be doing and mpg, My 1745 will hopefully be returning 30 or very close by the time I have finished tuning with the AFR meter

and to confuse the issue further some have found it was easier to 'upgrade' to a standard type4 2litre in terms of overall cost £400-£1000 as an estimate, than blow loads of cash on a 'bug' engine

 

[sparkywig]

I did think about a stock 2.0l type 4 with 70hp on tap already as opposed to building a larger capacity type 1 lump. But there's the cost of type 4 heads, heat exchangers and tinware to bear in mind.

 

[mattd1984]

I had a 1600 sp and kept the main block but had it bored for 90.5 cylinders. Went for a Scat C35 cam and lightweight cam followers. Drilled for full flow oil. Got some new twin port heads aswell. All the above with a remote cooler / fan & filter. 4 into 1 header and mondo. New Twin webber 34's

Made a massive difference I am going to get it tuned up soon and put on the rolling road. Just need to do a couple of hundred more miles.

 

[dubdubz]

I did think about a stock 2.0l type 4 with 70hp on tap already as opposed to building a larger capacity type 1 lump. But there's the cost of type 4 heads, heat exchangers and tinware to bear in mind.

but [albeit a big one] a complete engine which is recon'd and put together well will outlast a T1 by several years - we're led to believe anyway this is a thread hijack for Pete

sorry

on topic - a well built 1776 will keep up with modern traffic when required and return reasonable mpg, and can be built without buying a cw crank and fancy bits, it is a standard width engine too, so the tinware will fit, there are ways you can build a bigger CC like a 1955 and keep it standard width with shorter rods but I can't locate this info.

 

[67panel]

PETE THE 1835 is the same as having a 1641 ,over bored barrells.If we win it on ebay will be building a 1776 for the race beetle but this will be wild for a bus .a "stock" rebuild to 1776 as you only need case and heads flycut to fit would be your best bet but would put 110 cam in and port heads a bit just to make the extra ccs work ,with itcs it wont be a rever anyway ,twin 40s would make it better but not for your budget.Its the compresion ratio thats important,if its high that will make the engine run hotter but will make more power /tourqe(10.5/11 to1 on our race motor)keep it 8.5/9 on street trim .also dont forget exhaust as this will efect power /tourqe as well and get it balanced as the mains will last better.keep your spaners shiny

 

[Pete B]

I understand this subject opens all sorts of boundaries, but to keep to the core, Type 1 engine, stock bar 90.5 mm pistons and 34 ICt's, what else would others consider important? External oil cooler and filter taken as fundamental regardless of engine size. I'm not running down the strip so why bother with 8 dowels in the flywheel. Not reving so stock cam ok?
My thoughts are based on how my '64 beetle drove, glorious. That engine worked so well and was sooo right!
Thank you all, was hoping for a tried and tested 1776 recipe, will keep thinking.

 

[67panel]

remember a stock engine is heaverly restricted ,you should be ok 4dowells but would recomend race gland nut,110 cam is mild,fit hd oil pump and bypass fillter and maybe small cooler with thermostat so its ok on short trips(not over cooled)any way thats what i would do,1776 with stock crank(balanced),ported heads ,110 cam,hd oil pump with bypass oil,filter and cooler,weber itcs,good exhaust,maybe bolt up rocker shafts and bolt on rocker covers and better breather/oil filler :mrgreen: well thats what i wanted for mine!

 

[dubdubz]

speak to Laurie, Pete

his most built engine size is a 1776.

I'm sure you can use std heads and rockers, std cam, std oil pump [ there's a big thread on thesamba about not running HD pumps ], just full flow. If it is running warm and you'll know you can add an additional cooler but with std cooling present and working it shouldn't be necessary especially if the jetting is correct , the timing is correct [ so I'd invest in a decent dizzy with leccy ignition ] and the CR ratio is kept to a normal level.

it does come back to budget though - as if there's a slush fund the size of your local MP, then spending 300-400 on head work and valve jobs can help the engine breath better, but then you need to spend the money on a decent flowing exhaust.........and so on!

You can build a 1776 almost like a std 1600, hardly tweaking anything or balancing and lightening and porting and etc etc....there isn't really a standard build as decent builders should listen to their clients and how they want to drive and the overall 'feel'

I haven't helped none sorry............

 

[sparkywig]

Hmmm, there might be a pair of 94mm single port heads up for sale soon... :lol:
Sounds like a 1776 might be a better idea, let me know what you go for Pete.

 

[petegee56]

I am in the process of buying a bigger engine which i am getting laurie pettitt to build for me, I had a long conversation with him today, i had two options really a 1776 with a mild cam stock crank and heads, or put in a stroker crank and make it 1955, in the end it comes down to budget. i think a decent 1776 is enough power increase for most

Pete

 

[Slammed]

Pete, do you want to take my bus for a spin up the road at Ninove, or in the UK beforehand?

Should give you a good idea of what to expect. 8)

 

[alex4057]

remember a stock engine is heaverly restricted ,you should be ok 4dowells but would recomend race gland nut,110 cam is mild,fit hd oil pump and bypass fillter and maybe small cooler with thermostat so its ok on short trips(not over cooled)any way thats what i would do,1776 with stock crank(balanced),ported heads ,110 cam,hd oil pump with bypass oil,filter and cooler,weber itcs,good exhaust,maybe bolt up rocker shafts and bolt on rocker covers and better breather/oil filler :mrgreen: well thats what i wanted for mine!

What he's been saying is TRUE!!!!

I don't care about some thread on the samba or ssvc from personal experience and also experience of engines built at a reputable builders I can vouch for going FULL FLOW with an uprated Pump, Filter, and Cooler (with in line thermostat and fan) this not only boosts the amount of oil in the system (Cheaper and better than a deep sump). The main things to do is pay attention to the compression ratio! THIS is vital, if you buy bits and just bolt them together it could be ok, BUT it could also be a massively high compression and go bang or much more likely (from the heads I've seen measured recently) it'll end up with a really LOW compression which will leave you with an engine even more gutless than a good stock 1600cc. Engines are eloborate air pumps. The heads are a cruical part of the set up and where you should spend the money (or time) easily done yourself with time patience, a good tuning book and a dremmel match port your carb manifolds to the heads and the exhaust ports to your exhaust system. Lastly I think if your looking for longevity, getting the clutch, flywheel, crank and front pulley ballanced (if possible also getting the rods and pistons ballanced too. The more in tune and ballanced the engine is the longer it'll last as the less greif it'll be giving the bearings! (Pete at Cogbox has bloke that does balancing for him if you don't want to post things to outer hebradies).

I hope that helps a little!

 

[67panel]

cheers alex looks like we won that 1776 motor on ebay £350 in bits ,just got to get to notingham to pick it up :roll: so will keep a bit of a post to let you all know how we get on,parts buying at bugfreeze then :msn4:

 

[Pete B]

Pete, do you want to take my bus for a spin up the road at Ninove, or in the UK beforehand?

Should give you a good idea of what to expect. 8)

Mate, that would be fantastic, thanks so much! Will give you a ring if I can get over to you before Ninove, work looks to be going mental right now. As you say, would be a good way to see what to expect. Cool.

 

[creationblue]

Hi

Im having a 1776 built by Jason @ Interpro in Bristol, after getting his advise on what to expect for your money I opted to use my existing case & crank, but replace everything else with new. It turned out that the engine was in great shape so these parts are useable. Im using a mild cam, TP heads that are gonna be ported, new dissy & 40IDFs, ballanced flywheel, blueprinted ect. This should be good for around 100bhp maybe a little less, but should be bullet proof and produce loads of torque. I dont wanna be doing this again so spending as much as I can afford to replace everything with quality parts. The important thing for me was to get it built well by someone with a good name in the business, and have everything balanced and bolted together, hence i didnt do it myself :lol:

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Just

 

[Slammed]

Pete, do you want to take my bus for a spin up the road at Ninove, or in the UK beforehand?

Should give you a good idea of what to expect. 8)

Mate, that would be fantastic, thanks so much! Will give you a ring if I can get over to you before Ninove, work looks to be going mental right now. As you say, would be a good way to see what to expect. Cool.

No worries, you have my number. Hopefully I'll not be working next time you're round these parts.