NO MORE! - Tyres Rubbing the Arches

[ZedBed]

I too found Alex very helpful and more than generous with his time. He advised me that as far as uprating shocks etc it was best to suck it and see as sometimes you need them and sometimes you don't. I personally think this is far better advice than just selling everyone "slam shocks" whether they need them or not. As it happens I don't need them, and I'm happy that a supplier has NOT advised me to buy something I don't need.
195/60/14's BTW.

 

[ozziedog]

Hi there,or G`day, I can almost feel your frustration from this post . Most sets of springs will become gradually weaker after the amount of flexing they`ve done for the best part of forty years. I think most of them came out of the factory, not level but slightly nose up but the rear end is always gonna sag more than the front because of the amount of weight on it, not just when driving along but 24 / 7. Expecting the springs to be as good as they were when new, was a little over optomistic on my part as well. I`ve got the coilovers and lower profiles to go with them but am just waiting for a set of the gas adjustables from Midland Earlybay. The ride on a lowered bus will never be as good as stock because you have reduced the amount of suspension travel, but as far as lowered busses go, this has got to be one of the top set ups available at a decent price. As you said, it`s such a shame you hadn`t clocked this site earlier. Where abouts down under are you ?? Now you`ve found us ,, try not to be a stranger, there`s also a late bay site as well you may want to nose around :mrgreen:

Ozziedog,,,,,,,,,,, Do you come from a land d,,,,,,,,,, :mrgreen:

 

[Platinum Will]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your replies.

67 Westy: No the beam has not been altered from factory.
Clem: I agree, but even if the bus was originally higher still is it really a 3.5" drop??

Troupster: I actually had my mechanic look at fitting adjusters after having fitted the spindles. Thing is, when it was on the hoist we removed the lower bumpstop and the lower arm came to a stop just below where the bumpstop would sit. Raising the beam by 2" would have meant the lower arm would be on the bumpstop (with the bus on the road again). My mechanic then strongly advised against this setup as the balljoints would basically be at the limit of their travel and that could be the fast track to failure.

Zedbed: I found Alex very helpful at the start, before I bought the dropped spindles. Unfortunately he did not offer any information about what I might need to do in order to get them to work properly. He obviously knows there are issues involved, why not be up front about it? It's not a matter of advising me to buy something I don't need, it's advising that there is a possibility they will be needed therefore extra time/expense etc.

Ozziedog: Yeah mate, I am in the Gold Coast. You could probably tell by the pictures... I know I can't expect the springs to be as good as new, but by my reckoning the 3.5" dropped spindles seem to have lowered the bus by just under 5" then low pro tires another 1". That is the main issue I think!!

BTW legal minimum ground clearance here is 100mm, so now my bus is 20mm into the dark side..

 

[Graham L]

HI Will

I'm somewhat confused by some of your comments, we have fitted at least 8 sets of dropped spindles from Alex and have never had the problems you seem to be experiencing, remember these are dropped spindles and the only difference is that the ball joints face the opposite direction to lift your wheel 3.5 - 4" into the wheel well (4" with lower profile tyres).

The arms themselves fit in exactly the same way and should locate in exactly the same place as your old ones did and should have no effect on the bumpstop position as this part of the arm has not changed, we always fit the bump stop rubbers back onto beam and they work happilly alongside the dropped spindles.

I think theres an issue with your beam either in the fact the springs are very weak or the reataining collar for the leaves has somehow broken away from the beam itself allowing the leaves to rotate causing the issues you are having., are the arms securely located onto the leaves and the beam in the right position? (they hang down around the 5 oclock position on a clock face), as when you fit them you have to lever the top arm over the top of the bumpstop arm to get it in, did you have to do that?

The joy of the dropped spindles is that you still get full suspension movement and the only reason people fit coilovers is to add a bit more damping to stop it fouling the top of the wheelarch, they are not there to support the arms or anything else. remember you are moving the centre of the wheel up by 3.5" from standard so with full suspension travel its going to foul at some point.

I would suggest looking at your beam and arm location as I believe thats the issue you are having,

 

[Platinum Will]

Hi Graham,

There is no issue with the bumpstop as it sits now, it is the same position as before. Yes the arms went back into the same position, they will not go onto the springs in any other position. I had to raise the lower arm with a trolley jack to be able to fasten the top ball joint onto it's arm and also to get the top arm past the bumpstop mount like you say.

The issue would arise however if I had raised the beam, putting more pre-load on the springs and raising the trailing arms to a higher position. That would place the lower arm virtually on the lower bumpstop. At this point, which I was trying to explain, is the limit of downward travel within the balljoints. Not on the bumpstop, but about 8mm lower or past the bumpstop. I'm not sure how much compression there is in the bumpstop rubber and it may well be fine, but it is very close.

Sorry about poor quality photos, this is before removing the original spindles:

This is dropped spindles just fitted, on the hoist with 185C/14 tires:

This is dropped spindles, 185/65/14, full weight on the ground:

The beam, it's original has no adjusters and doesn't look or feel to be loose anywhere. It makes no noises when driving. I understand what you say about weak springs, but wouldn't that mean sagging in the first place? My bus was definitely up like most in the front. I had 150mm between tire and wheel arch before. This is right now, on the ground and in the dark...:

 

[Platinum Will]

By the way,

Thanks for trying to help guys, I appreciate it!

Will

 

[ZedBed]

Hi Will - the measurement that will negate tyre size and may lead to enlightenment is inside of tub (the flat surfaces) to hub centre. I'll put mine back on the ground tomorrow and measure for a comparison.

 

[Blowfish14417]

Hi. Yep my set up is, dropped TransporterHaus spindles, standard beam and coil over shocks.

I've got Empi 5 wheels. Tried gas filled shocks rubbed like mad. Then got coil overs. On top setting and fine - no probs.

Had to change my rear shocks to gas filled though from the stock ones. Found bus was twisting on cornering.

 

[jimbope]

HI chaps.

Yeah I have now had T2D fit dropped spindles and coilovers. I get virtually no rubbing HOWEVER my only gripe is the fact that they are advertised as "stock ride quality" which is as we all know rubbish! Is quite obvious that this cannot be as if I put my hand up under arch there is bugger all clearance between the tyre and inner arch! The coil overs limit the travel to stop the tyre rubbing which in my opinion negates the effects of having "standard length suspension travel".

My bus is still very springy and bouncy - dont get me wrong it doesnt bang like it did on beam adjusters but is is not a smooth ride. I did the usual North norfolk coastal route in mine today and the back roads were so bouncy it was still quite uncomfortable. Even on main A roads it bounces over the slightest undulation.

Im goin to try and stiffen the coil overs up to see if that improve things (T2D left em on the softest setting)- I would love to try to Midland Early bays coil overs but TBH I feel that I have spent enough on the bus lately!!

Maybe Im gettting soft and should left it as "volkswagen intended"!! :lol:

 

[the_troupster]

Spax adjustables. £142 delivered. 2 week lead time. 2 yr warranty.

http://mailshot.motorsportworld.co.uk/framefix.asp?ProductCode=SPX-G401&PID=777884

Very happy with mine.

Jim

 

[Platinum Will]

Is anybody running these spindles with adjusters and set the adjusters to a higher position?

How did you go about raising the beam on the adjusters? I could imagine that it would be difficult to do as you are working against the preload of the springs. Did you have to remove the trailing arms, adjust, then reassemble??

Cheers

 

[the_troupster]

Removing the trailing arms would be easier, however this is not how I did/do it. My van didnt come with any rubber bump stops on the err, bump stop and never bothered to replace them. Thus theres no preload on the springs when jacked up on axle stands.

I made a tool about 2 foot long with a threaded hole in the end that screws onto the adjuster bolt. Then I give it some. You can only go so far though before the top adjustable bolt fouls the gearshift linkage and/or the bottom adjuster bolt becomes vunerable from tarmac attacks.

Still need to get some measurements posted up. Keep forgetting... Been trying some alloy welding with my MIG tonight. Not pretty.

Jim

 

[mi2itsdl]

I currently have my bus lowered with beam adjusters. If I fit t2d drop spindles with the beam set back to normal, will the beam sit closer or further away from the floor? Just trying to work out what sort of ground clearance I will get under the bus, for speed bumps, etc?

Cheers, Simon

 

[the_troupster]

I currently have my bus lowered with beam adjusters. If I fit t2d drop spindles with the beam set back to normal, will the beam sit closer or further away from the floor? Just trying to work out what sort of ground clearance I will get under the bus, for speed bumps, etc?

Cheers, Simon

It all depends on how much it's currently lowered on the adjusters...

Just took some measurements on mine. I've got 50mm clearance between top of tyre and wheel arch and 70mm from the beam to the floor. This could stretch to 85mm after trimming the bottom of the beam end plates.

Strangely, its the beam that hits the floor before the tyres rub? :?

I should also point out that when approaching on/off ramps, I have to be carefull the front suspension doesnt compress, else the tow hook under the front bumper can catch the ground.

As I mentioned before the 175/50 profiles tyres are a little firm at 40psi to stop them getting warm. As others have suggested, 175/55 would be the smallest profile tyre I would recomend.

I hope all this info can be of some help to others making decisions on what to get. I hope this thread doesnt deter people from flipped spindles. I still believe they are the best solution for lowering at the front. Just they can't be considered a one stop solution to the holy grail of lowered goodness IMHO...

Jim

 

[Clem]

I hope this thread doesnt deter people from flipped spindles. I still believe they are the best solution for lowering at the front. Just they can't be considered a one stop solution to the holy grail of lowered goodness IMHO...

Jim

Spot on.

 

[mister]

I've read this post over and over, over the last few months as I have had a set of T'haus dropped spindles and S'werks spring plates sitting under the bed waiting to be fitted since the group buys at the beginning of the year. I have been going back and forwards about whether to fit them or not.

Finally yesterday after deciding to go for it, I had my first drive in the lowered bus, with 175/65 R14 tyres on the front and I already had KYB gas adjust shocks on all four corners.

The lowering has totally transformed the handling of the van for the best, its the first time I have driven a lowered vw and haven't grinned some much for ages...I'm really pleased.

I got a bit of tyre rubbing the arch on really bumpy country roads where the tarmac erodes into the verge, but round town and on A roads no problems at all. I expected a bit of rubbing from reading others experiences and decided I would just take the "suck it and see" approach and decided later whether it would be worth changing for coil overs and I guess by some accounts I guess I have got lucky with my torsion bars

I would say that both the dropped spindles and adjustable spring plates are both great products, but like anything aspect with these 40 year old vehicles you have to have a bit of a contingency and do some research before messing with stock.

A big thanks goes to everybody who has contributed their experiences! anybody thinking of lowering their bus will benefit from reading this thread..Cheers!

 

[r73]

HI chaps.

Yeah I have now had T2D fit dropped spindles and coilovers. I get virtually no rubbing HOWEVER my only gripe is the fact that they are advertised as "stock ride quality" which is as we all know rubbish! Is quite obvious that this cannot be as if I put my hand up under arch there is bugger all clearance between the tyre and inner arch! The coil overs limit the travel to stop the tyre rubbing which in my opinion negates the effects of having "standard length suspension travel".

My bus is still very springy and bouncy - dont get me wrong it doesnt bang like it did on beam adjusters but is is not a smooth ride. I did the usual North norfolk coastal route in mine today and the back roads were so bouncy it was still quite uncomfortable. Even on main A roads it bounces over the slightest undulation.

Im goin to try and stiffen the coil overs up to see if that improve things (T2D left em on the softest setting)- I would love to try to Midland Early bays coil overs but TBH I feel that I have spent enough on the bus lately!!

Maybe Im gettting soft and should left it as "volkswagen intended"!! :lol:

these words echo in my mind!!

 

[jimbope]

Yeah - sorry if I came across a bit anti spindles in my last post :evil: - I agree that people shouldn`t be put off dropped spindles but I also feel that its a bit misleading to people selling these products as "stock ride quality/as factory intended" etc when they so obviously are not!! (when used with coil overs anyway - I cant comment on running em with stock shocks).

T2D did a great job on mine - the bus handles really well now - people in the back dont seem to get affected by the bouncyness. I suppose sitting over the front wheels doesn`t help!! It looks really cool (which is probably the main reason why most people go down this route if we are being honest! ) too - You would never have the bus this low on beam adjusters as the suspension/your back wouldnt last long!

I think the main problem is the quality of the coil overs - which lets be honest here are pretty basic when compared to say a performance coil over. As people have already mentioned they are under damped which is why Midland early ones sound just the trick. If you are lucky enough to not need them then Im sure the ride would be improved.

Im pretty sure that the thread has the dropped spindle situation covered! :lol:

Just a thought - lets all tub our arches instead of fitting coil overs! :lol:

 

[ZedBed]

Hi Jimbope - you must keep your bus hidden well away - I've lived in Ely for 20 years and I've never seen it.

 

[jimbope]

@Zedbed - How funny! Didnt realise you were local! Think I may have found one of your business cards under the windscreen wiper in waitrose car park once.......

Had it for about 18 months - on the road for 1 year = just past its MOT for the 2nd year under my ownership - was off the road for 8 years prior to me buying it as an unfinished project from some guy in Devon.

Use it quite regularly for commute to Littleport when I have to take my son to childminders (cant take 2 year old on back of my GSXR) and am usually about so surprised you havent seen it - then again havent seen yours either! Will keep an eager eye out for you!!!!