No Oil Dip-stick with new car engine.. How does it know?

[cunning plan]

I was playing with a new Mini (not mine), F55 1.5d to be exact and there is no oil dip-stick, instead you have to use the on-board computer to run an oil check, which then displays the results on the centre console screen, similar to this one, but imagine an image of a dipstick with a level indicated on it:

That bit is quite simple, you would think a sensor just detects how much oil there is and displays it on the screen, however, to measure the oil, you have to have the car running and in neutral, which then prompts the system to start checking the oil.

On older engines, I have always waited for the car to cool and the oil to return to the sump to get an accurate measurement of exactly how much oil is in the sump and therefore, available to the engine. My understanding is, if the engine is running or has just been run, the oil will be distributed around the engine, in the journals, head, passageways, turbo etc, so the amount in the actual sump will appear to be lower.

So, how do new engines, without dip-sticks measure oil? :?

 

[Clem]

Pressure measurement at a given rpm is my guess?

 

[cunning plan]

That makes sense.

So do you think it is drawing oil through a 'device' which expects X amount of oil to pass through in X time, if it is less by pressure, then you have less oil? :?

I will take a picture of the dash display when it has completed the check, it seems to know exactly the amount of oil in the system. It even shows a dip-stick with a level on it, so the oil can be somewhere between the minimum and maximum mark. :shock:

 

[Mags]

I would assume it just measures the amount of oil in the sump when running as opposed to switched off?
The sump will still have plenty of oil when the engine is running (unless its a dry sump system) so it probably just measures how much this is instead of when cooled and switched off. Seems simple to me, unless I'm missing something?

 

[cunning plan]

I would assume it just measures the amount of oil in the sump when running as opposed to switched off?
The sump will still have plenty of oil when the engine is running (unless its a dry sump system) so it probably just measures how much this is instead of when cooled and switched off. Seems simple to me, unless I'm missing something?

How can you measure the level of a liquid which is moving? Surely the oil would be fluctuating with every movement of the crank, right? :?

Who cares......

Its not aircooled or a bus.....

Maybe other people would like to talk about something automotive related, which is different from what they have been playing with for the last 20 years

I just thought it was interesting from an engineering perspective, although I could not find another forum section to put it in.

 

[Clem]

hahahaha Just pulling your leg dude, Its an interesting development in engineering but I think we need an "Off Topic" section

Good point. Maybe we could call it 'General Chat' or something ...

 

[cunning plan]

hahahaha Just pulling your leg dude, Its an interesting development in engineering but I think we need an "Off Topic" section

:mrgreen:

Honestly, I can and want to talk about Buses for hours, but sometimes it would be good to discuss something different with EarlyBay chums.

We all have the same main interest on here, however we all have different opinions and backgrounds which makes it all topics really interesting to discuss. I have to admit I browse the 'Chat' Section of VZi when having a break as there is quite a lot on there, some funny, some informative, some news etc.

Good point. Maybe we could call it 'General Chat' or something ...

Only if it is what 'the' people would like, don't do it just for me or I'll just be talking to myself :lol: :sad2:

:msn4:

 

[monkeyvanwestybike]

We have the " Dipstickless" system on our Disco at work
if you forget to check oil from cold before you start the engine
and then start the engine and stop it not letting it warm up
it will come up one the service menu as " Not available" or sometimes add 1.5 litres of oil
you then have to run till hot then wait 15 mins before you get the correct reading
To many lights and buzzers for me I would rather have the Dipstick :lol:

 

[Mags]

I would assume it just measures the amount of oil in the sump when running as opposed to switched off?
The sump will still have plenty of oil when the engine is running (unless its a dry sump system) so it probably just measures how much this is instead of when cooled and switched off. Seems simple to me, unless I'm missing something?

How can you measure the level of a liquid which is moving? Surely the oil would be fluctuating with every movement of the crank, right? :?

Who cares......

Its not aircooled or a bus.....

Maybe other people would like to talk about something automotive related, which is different from what they have been playing with for the last 20 years

I just thought it was interesting from an engineering perspective, although I could not find another forum section to put it in.

Well, in theory (I think) the same amount of fluid will be returning to the sump as is being sucked out. The crank doesn't touch the oil in the sump, so if the engine is in neutral and not moving the level should remain consistent I would have thought.

 

[K@rlos]

Dipsticks can't go wrong either

 

[67panel]

the worst bit is when you do an oil change as you have to get it warm before it will read and if its low and you top it up it takes 5mins to give correct reading WHATS WRONG WITH A CHEAP BL**DY DIP STICK.some still have the tube but capped of,why?????modern cars do my head,drove a auto bmw onto mot ramp and opened door to see if going straight and it put itself into park,cant see out of side windows cos so high now for crash protection that's why you need parking sensors and reversing cameras . sounds like check out at Tesco driving on the ramp.






dave thinking it could be worse like servicing old A60

 

[Happystamps]

Funnily enough a colleague and I have been designing dipstick assemblies for new cars recently... Pretty standard, no electronic gadgets in these.

I imagine with the electronic versions, you'll have a baffled section with a level gauge in it and you'll get an average level from that. If it's done well enough it shouldn't vary too much.

You're all right though, all this electronic stuff is bollocks.

 

[Moseley]

Funnily enough a colleague and I have been designing dipstick assemblies for new cars recently... Pretty standard, no electronic gadgets in these.

I imagine with the electronic versions, you'll have a baffled section with a level gauge in it and you'll get an average level from that. If it's done well enough it shouldn't vary too much.

You're all right though, all this electronic stuff is bollocks.

I'm sure it is all a money-making ploy from the dealerships. Designing cars in this way makes it harder for the home mechanic to do their own servicing and they're almost forced into having to take it into a garage. With the way some of these specialist tools are made and how much they cost, it won't be long before motorists are forced to take it into the main dealer rather than a back street one.

 

[Marriedblonde]

Mine has both, electronic through the dash and a good old fashion stick in the engine bay.

But to be fair I don't check it, if it tells me to add a litre I do if not it goes in for a service. Its a modern car with a warranty so no need to worry

J.

 

[lard]

Hi - my mini clubman s used to have a dipstick - but then it was doing a litre every 600 miles and mini said this was "within tolerance" :shock:

Anyway - I imagine the reason why it's electronic and not mechanical is two fold... with electronic if engine damage occurs due to low oil there will be a record of this, also with the recent issues with the cooper s's drinking oil it will also be easier for them to diagnose otherwise they have to fill it, seal the oil cap and then get the customer to come back after 1000 miles and they check it again, there have been noted issues with the oil consumption and this would save money investigating under warranty as all checkable via onboard computer

The other and probably likely reason is machine to machine or "the internet of things" - this is essentially connecting everything together - I work for a well known ISP/Mobile company and the machine to machine team are already putting SIM's in Audi, BMW e.t.c. - for both remote diagnostics and also internet access - with all metrics on the vehicle logged, and accessible at any time it will be much easier to introduce flexible service intervals (car tells the dealer it needs oil) and also remote diagnostics

the future looks like this, the car detects a problem, it analyses it and then calls back into the manufacturer with the results, these are crunched, compared to the status of other cars and they can tell if it's a wider issue or just your vehicle, they then either adjust the car remotely to get around the problem or ask you to take the car to be looked at - premium brands may even notify you that your car will be swapped out automatically, just confirm on the menu in car when you will be leaving it for 4 hours or longer, and they will then come and fix it (having the rights parts already, knowing what the issue is) or swap it for a replacement - all while you are at work or home without having to speak to anyone

essentially - that's why there's no dip-stick - why would a human need to check the oil when the car is meshed with the manufacturer and every other model in a hive like fashion continually updating and adjusting...........

the requirement for a dipstick was one of the last links between man and vehicle .... now the car is way more qualified to check it's own oil, remove "human error" and oh, the extra cost to install the electronic dipstick is paid for by you - makes it harder and harder to self service and therefore ties the customer to the brand even more

 

[golf gt]

As far as I'm aware the new f series minis still have a sensor in the sump, measurement can only take place with a hot engine running at idle, it's a pretty good system that works and is easy to check, dipsticks are even better but unfortunately most people these days don't know how to open the bonnet!

What did you think to the rest of the car, they have some nice trick bits as standard now.

67panel- regarding the roll away, it's to stop people from getting out there car in gear, easily bypassed by plugging a seatbelt in (like the passenger one) then it thinks your not going to fall out!

I'm a BMW tech hence the nerdy answers!

Cheers

 

[cunning plan]

We have the " Dipstickless" system on our Disco at work
if you forget to check oil from cold before you start the engine
and then start the engine and stop it not letting it warm up
it will come up one the service menu as " Not available" or sometimes add 1.5 litres of oil
you then have to run till hot then wait 15 mins before you get the correct reading
To many lights and buzzers for me I would rather have the Dipstick :lol:

Ahh, hassle! Hopefully this system will not be as buggy as that! :shock:

Well, in theory (I think) the same amount of fluid will be returning to the sump as is being sucked out. The crank doesn't touch the oil in the sump, so if the engine is in neutral and not moving the level should remain consistent I would have thought.

Good point, I just cannot understand why they need the engine running though, surely it would be better to measure the sump level when it is static, there must be a benefit to checking it whilst running. I assume it checks the level and the pressure at the same time? Not sure..

Dipsticks can't go wrong either

Haha :lol: This is true, although I have seen a few cars where the dip-stick was 'messy' if you just pulled it out and checked the level, which meant that you could not get an accurate reading. You actually had to pull the dip-stick out and wait 5 minutes or so for the oil in the dip-stick tube to drip back down into the sump, then check again. :| The car I am directly referring to was Ford Ka. :?

the worst bit is when you do an oil change as you have to get it warm before it will read and if its low and you top it up it takes 5mins to give correct reading WHATS WRONG WITH A CHEAP BL**DY DIP STICK.some still have the tube but capped of,why?

Yep, I like to check again and again after doing an oil change to ensure the engine has protection before starting the engine. Having to start the engine to check the oil level, to then be told that it needs more seems counter productive. :?

Although I had a proper look at the car today and opened the bonnet and it DOES still have an dip-stick! :mrgreen: The car is packed full of electronics, so I guess it gives the owner a choice of how to check the engine, especially if you do not know anything about engines.

Funnily enough a colleague and I have been designing dipstick assemblies for new cars recently... Pretty standard, no electronic gadgets in these.

I imagine with the electronic versions, you'll have a baffled section with a level gauge in it and you'll get an average level from that. If it's done well enough it shouldn't vary too much.

You're all right though, all this electronic stuff is bollocks.

AH, an engineer's reply is very welcomed 8)

Any idea why it NEEDS to be running? That is what is teasing and confusing me, incase anyone has not noticed :lol: :scared0012:

P.S. Did you design the old style Ford Ka's dip-stick?

I'm sure it is all a money-making ploy from the dealerships. Designing cars in this way makes it harder for the home mechanic to do their own servicing and they're almost forced into having to take it into a garage. With the way some of these specialist tools are made and how much they cost, it won't be long before motorists are forced to take it into the main dealer rather than a back street one.

Interesting point.

I asked where the service book was for the car and was informed that it does not have one, meaning that it has not been lost, but that it doesn't come with one! :shock:

Instead, all of the service data is stored on the key, on some kind of Flash memory I am guessing. So the idea is, the car tells you a service is due, you take the car to the service department, they 'scan' the key, it tells them what is due to be done, they complete the work, update the key which also in-turn updates the car's on-board computer.

I thought that this could be a positive and a negative:

Positive:
Imagine that you are buying the car, you do not have to listen to the lies of the previous owner about the service history, instead you can check for yourself on the cars computer. Although, as with all of these systems, I am sure it will be cracked and people will learn how to update the systems themselves, however, at least you should not have a car with 'lost paperwork' :roll:

Negative:
I have always had 8+ year old cars and completed all servicing myself. This is a new car, so hopefully I will not have to do anything to it for a while (it's the misseseseseseses), but I was thinking about how I would actually update the service records, because as you rightly say, at the moment I believe it is only official deals who have that capability!

Mine has both, electronic through the dash and a good old fashion stick in the engine bay.

But to be fair I don't check it, if it tells me to add a litre I do if not it goes in for a service. Its a modern car with a warranty so no need to worry

J.

Yes, actually got to have a good look at the car today and found a proper dip-stick as well as the electronic system.

Hi - my mini clubman s used to have a dipstick - but then it was doing a litre every 600 miles and mini said this was "within tolerance" :shock:

Anyway - I imagine the reason why it's electronic and not mechanical is two fold... with electronic if engine damage occurs due to low oil there will be a record of this, also with the recent issues with the cooper s's drinking oil it will also be easier for them to diagnose otherwise they have to fill it, seal the oil cap and then get the customer to come back after 1000 miles and they check it again, there have been noted issues with the oil consumption and this would save money investigating under warranty as all checkable via onboard computer

The other and probably likely reason is machine to machine or "the internet of things" - this is essentially connecting everything together - I work for a well known ISP/Mobile company and the machine to machine team are already putting SIM's in Audi, BMW e.t.c. - for both remote diagnostics and also internet access - with all metrics on the vehicle logged, and accessible at any time it will be much easier to introduce flexible service intervals (car tells the dealer it needs oil) and also remote diagnostics

the future looks like this, the car detects a problem, it analyses it and then calls back into the manufacturer with the results, these are crunched, compared to the status of other cars and they can tell if it's a wider issue or just your vehicle, they then either adjust the car remotely to get around the problem or ask you to take the car to be looked at - premium brands may even notify you that your car will be swapped out automatically, just confirm on the menu in car when you will be leaving it for 4 hours or longer, and they will then come and fix it (having the rights parts already, knowing what the issue is) or swap it for a replacement - all while you are at work or home without having to speak to anyone

essentially - that's why there's no dip-stick - why would a human need to check the oil when the car is meshed with the manufacturer and every other model in a hive like fashion continually updating and adjusting...........

the requirement for a dipstick was one of the last links between man and vehicle .... now the car is way more qualified to check it's own oil, remove "human error" and oh, the extra cost to install the electronic dipstick is paid for by you - makes it harder and harder to self service and therefore ties the customer to the brand even more

Yes, totally good points, I am sure there is even a counter to see how many times I have looked at the 'check oil' system...... Quite a lot, I think I'm covered :lol:

As far as I'm aware the new f series minis still have a sensor in the sump, measurement can only take place with a hot engine running at idle, it's a pretty good system that works and is easy to check, dipsticks are even better but unfortunately most people these days don't know how to open the bonnet!

What did you think to the rest of the car, they have some nice trick bits as standard now.

67panel- regarding the roll away, it's to stop people from getting out there car in gear, easily bypassed by plugging a seatbelt in (like the passenger one) then it thinks your not going to fall out!

I'm a BMW tech hence the nerdy answers!

Cheers

BMW Tech - excellent!

Prepare for my questions :lol:

Any idea why it NEEDS to be running to electronically check the oil? :|

Regarding the rest of the car, it is not my car, but I have to admit, it is quite a massive upgrade from the older cars we have been used to. I actually really like the 'girly' mood lights It makes it a nice place to be.

We have the new German (built in Austria) 1.5d engine, which I believe is a Twin Turbo, although we are taking it easy for the first few thousand miles as a 'running in' period.

The only points I am disappointed with really is the width of the 15" alloy wheels (175s - a bit too skinny) and the reversing lights are not very bright, but then they are only small slits.

Also, a bit more space by the clutch would be nice, I constantly clip the 'rest block' next to it.

Apart from that though, as I say, a massive upgrade really!



Now, for anyone interested, here is what has caused all the fuss:

 

[lard]

I loved the mood lights - though round the binnacle is a new one!

Seeing that image reminded me that my 2000 Mercedes 320D S Class had electronic oil level, can't remember if it had to be running or not, though it did once tell me whilst I was going along that my oil was high.... :? .... I drove constantly looking at the malfunctions menu in that car, just waiting for something else electronic to pop up - in 15 years time people won't stop cause their car was driving funny or spewing out smoke but because the computer said so

The key on the mini was good -they just scan it when you walk up to the service desk and they know who you are - only issue was me losing (and then thankfully finding) a key, think it was around £250 to buy the key and then for them to match it to the car!

Though all the electronic stuff didn't come in handy when I had issues with idle on my 2011 cooper s - 9 visits in 12 months for the same thing, and they ended up refunding me for the car (forced to under sales of goods act via the ombudsman), it was the high pressure fuel pump (well documented issue) but because the computer didn't show it as faulty they weren't allowed to replace it, cost them a lot more than a new pump in the end!

Also had mercedes quote me £2000 for a new instrument cluster, because the computer said it was faulty, when I attempted to fix myself found out in 2 mins it was a £7 relay :roll: - issue I have is trusting a vehicle to a main dealer for the rest of it's life

You don't *have* to get main dealer service to ensure statutory rights (under sale of goods act) are unaffected, such as fit for purpose, satisfactory quality - it's just the main dealers warranty which should be in addition to SOGA that would be affected, so fine to service yourself but think you will have to get a print off from the key, and then add paper copies, I doubt BMW/Mini will let anyone else update the service history on the keys (but may be wrong!)

BTW - does it have the Mini Connected option on it? loved it on mine with the G force meters and what not 8)

 

[Steve B]

Just to add my bit:

Majority of cars listed without dipsticks, do actually have a small stump one, lower down for service work checks.

On my car, it's low down right at the front of the engine. If you didn't know about it, you wouldn't think it was. Service Technicians use this when doing an oil change, just like the old method. The on-board system is simply for the customer to use, and make it easier to check. You can check yourself too using the stump, just need to reach for it. Obviously different cars have them in different positions. Perhaps one or two don't have them at all, but majority still do.

Unfortunately, more and more people don't know the basics of car maintenance these days, hence why these systems are fitted.

Hope that helps.

 

[cunning plan]

I loved the mood lights - though round the binnacle is a new one!

You can set the lights to rotate through all the colours, which is nice, but it does it too quickly which means it is distracting when you are driving. Would have been a nice feature if they slowed the transitions down!

Though all the electronic stuff didn't come in handy when I had issues with idle on my 2011 cooper s - 9 visits in 12 months for the same thing, and they ended up refunding me for the car (forced to under sales of goods act via the ombudsman), it was the high pressure fuel pump (well documented issue) but because the computer didn't show it as faulty they weren't allowed to replace it, cost them a lot more than a new pump in the end!

Good to hear you achieved the correct outcome and was refunded, but I am sure it was a lot of hassle to get that far. That seems totally inadiquate that the service team cannot replace a faulty part because the computer does not show it as a fault! 'Computer says no' comes to mind! :roll:

As you say, by not being reasonable, they lost a lot more than the cost of a new pump!

I presume you had one of the dodgy Peugeot engines though? :?

You don't *have* to get main dealer service to ensure statutory rights (under sale of goods act) are unaffected, such as fit for purpose, satisfactory quality - it's just the main dealers warranty which should be in addition to SOGA that would be affected, so fine to service yourself but think you will have to get a print off from the key, and then add paper copies,

I will try not to touch the car. Part of the reasoning to get a new one was to reduce the amount of maintenance I have to do on various cars. I have an old Cherokee, then my sister had an old Ka, my Pop has an BMW 5 Series E39 etc, so all the small jobs soon start to overflow! I do not get that much time to work on my bus, so if I am working on something I would rather be working on the bus than repairing a daily driver!

I doubt BMW/Mini will let anyone else update the service history on the keys (but may be wrong!)

As I say, I will not touch it until the warranty period has ended, but hopefully in that time someone would have released a some kind of hack for the system to allow me to update the service history properly.

BTW - does it have the Mini Connected option on it? loved it on mine with the G force meters and what not 8)

[/quote]

It has that, but I have not played with it yet, so I am not really sure what it does! :|