ride quality advice needed

[curly head]

just after some advice as this is my first van and it is driving me mad!!!

i have fitted a 3" narrowed beam on my '71 camper which is sitting relatively low (580mm from floor to mid bottom of front arch) with T2D slammed shocks up front

i have been zipping around in it lately and the front is soooooo bouncy i was wondering if this is the norm and i should shut up and accept it or whether i need to put on harder/softer shocks :? i think they maybe too soft and the van is riding on the leaf springs but truth is i dont know

when we went to bugjam the other day our new baby was almost taking off in her car seat on the back roads. we are driving to italy in a few weeks so i need to get this sorted pronto

any help welcome

 

[Trikky2]

Without driving your van its hard to know precisely whats happening.

If the "bounce" is due to the suspension movement then harder shock will improve it but if the bounce is due to road undulations eg. the suspension is not moving much, then softer shocks will help.

That said, the ride on a lowered bay will always be compromised due to the reduced suspension travel. Fitting lowered spindles is a way of lowering whilst retaining the majority of suspension travel and hence it gives a better ride but it costs more than adjusters.

Ultimately its down to a balance between look and practicality tempered by depth of pocket.

I know they look nice lowered but if you want useability and comfort stay stock or reasonably close to it. eg if you must lower it then go 1 spline rather than 2 or 3. IMO

 

[curly head]

Without driving your van its hard to know precisely whats happening.

If the "bounce" is due to the suspension movement then harder shock will improve it but if the bounce is due to road undulations eg. the suspension is not moving much, then softer shocks will help.

That said, the ride on a lowered bay will always be compromised due to the reduced suspension travel. Fitting lowered spindles is a way of lowering whilst retaining the majority of suspension travel and hence it gives a better ride but it costs more than adjusters.

Ultimately its down to a balance between look and practicality tempered by depth of pocket.

I know they look nice lowered but if you want useability and comfort stay stock or reasonably close to it. eg if you must lower it then go 1 spline rather than 2 or 3. IMO

trikky

thanks for your reply

i think it is bouncing due to the T2D shocks being too soft. my thoughts are to buy some adjustables and then i can have a play around with them, can anyone recommend some good adjustables?

unfortunately i cant use dropped spindles with my beam. if i used dropped spindles even with my beam set to its highest setting it will now be too low, hindsight is a marvellous thing!!! :lol:

i was suckered into looks over practicality :roll: i didnt realise how bad it would be :shock:

 

[Tim S]

Mine was exactly as you describe before I got dropped spindles - riding at approx 570mm on 175/55R15 fronts it had about an inch of travel before the balljoints stopped the arms moving further. Not good for the balljoints obviously and not good for my back either! Worth checking the track rods - mine were like bananas from hitting the chassis rails.

It was transformed with T2D dropped spindles, having new beam adjusters welded in further round and Bugpack coilovers although I'm coming to realise the coilovers are too soft as it rubs the wheelarches quite easily. Track rod ends are now attached from below the steering arms which gives enough clearance.

You don't say what tyres you're running - might give some indication as to how much travel you've got left?

I reckon if you're going to throw money at it and you want to keep it low dropped spindles are the only way to go.

For a quick fix for the Italy trip you could try raising the front a smidge on the adjusters. If you do go down this route remember the tracking will need to be reset.

 

[creationblue]

Thing is if you have softer dampers then you will get more travel in the suspension with the net result being tyres rubbing on the tubs, or you stiffen things up to avoid this and get a bouncy stiff ride, the best ride is spindles, but the best look IMO is slammed, but after a few months of low-riding and avoiding the potholes and undulations in the road, im tired of it :lol:

Just

 

[Pickles]

always interested in the best way to lower. It seems that our bus may have been dropped 1 spline at the back now looks a little high at the front. If I read the posts correctly if I am to even it up the best way is to lower the front using dropped spindles how much am I likley to have to go is this two inches or ... by using dropped spindles does it keep everything else up standard??? relatively new to all this and if we go down this route want to make sure do the right/best thing.

Cheers

Baz

 

[Pete B]

As Trikky2 says, driving it would make helping easier. Things to consider. I do not accept that lowering on torsion bars alters the spring rate, therefore high or low, the springs work at the same rate. Ignore the shocks (sic) for now and imagine they are not fitted. When you hit a bump the impact is absorbed by the tyre sidewall and suspension spring. A soft spring will maybe crash out and bounce a lot before settling. A hard spring will not absorb the impact and transfer the movement to the entire vehicle making it very harsh and rough. Therefore you need a spring of the correct rating. VW sorted this at Hannover.
Shock absorbers, wrong name. They are 'dampers' and their purpose is to 'damp' the occillation of the spring after it has hit a bump. Too strong or 'hard' a damper and it will manifest as if the spring rate is too hard, ie not enough 'give' and result in banging and crashing. Too 'soft' a damper and the vehicle will continue to pogo up and down.
A balance is the answer, and in my humble opinion the std VW spring rate is fine, and STANDARD OIL FILLED shocks are perfectly fine. Gas filled, yes on a hot hatch being given the beans on a track, otherwise a waste of money.
You say this is your first bus, so presumably you have no datum to gauge its driveability by? Remember my friend that this is a 40 plus year old vehicle and will NOT drive like any vehicle manufactured in the last 30 or so years, it is not a 2005 Saxo!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
No offence meant dude, hope you get sorted for the little one to have a comfy ride 8)

PS, once lowered, going round corners is transformed beyond recognition. This can result in an unrealistic view of the handling and perhaps the observations at the top of this post?

 

[dave]

type 2 lowered mine about 3 or 4 inchs ( 1 day lowering, turned springs in tubes), fitted thier shocks and a lower profile tyre ( not sure on size, will look 2morrow). not had any problems with ride, in my opinion it has actually improved it, less roll but not bouncy or choppy.
Bus sits level rear rim level with top of wheel arch, wheel is just removable with out struggling.

 

[Trikky2]

As Trikky2 says, driving it would make helping easier. Things to consider. I do not accept that lowering on torsion bars alters the spring rate, therefore high or low, the springs work at the same rate.

I didnt see anyone saying the spring rate was different.

The reason the ride is compromised is due to reduced travel (and a little bit from changed arc of movement too). If the wheel cant deflect as much as it was designed to do then it will crash onto the bump stops and force the balljoints to the limit of their travel. Cheapskates saw the bumpstops off and will happily sacrifice comfort and safety for looks.

The only way to reduce forcing the suspension beyond its design limits is to fit harder springs (very difficult on stock beam) and/or harder gas support shocks. You cannot reasonably expect a suspension design to function correctly if you reduce its available travel without making it stiffer. Thats just basic physics.

Drop spindles work better because the suspension geometry and arc of movement and travel are left stock, only the wheel stub axle is moved upwards.

 

[mattd1984]

I am currently 1 spline out at the rear. With adjustable coilovers on the front from Red9 design down 4". I found them a bit harsh at first so adjusted the damper 1 click and its now sooooo much better. I was also running 175/75 on the front untill last night when changed them for 165/55 which has now brought the front down another inch and its actually made the ride more comfortably (i dont quite know how)???

 

[Trikky2]

made the ride more comfortably (i dont quite know how)???

Apart from different tyre pressures the ride quality can also vary with different brands and models and weight ratings of tyres that will have different stiffness of the sidewall.
A softer sidewall will give a softer ride but maybe more soggy cornering and less resistance to kerbing, for instance.

 

[Pete B]

I didnt see anyone saying the spring rate was different.

Ah, yes, that'll be because they didn't.....

And I keep forgetting about the ball joint/limit of travel thing. I wanted to get my bus quite low so I put a king and linkpin beam on with flipped spindles for the very reasons you state.

I'll get me coat...

 

[curly head]

spoke to T2D today about the problem and they said it cant be their slammed shocks as they use them on everything they do, from 1" to 6" drops. they said the spax adjustables are no better, am i a cynic :shock:

T2D also said even if it has slight rake it will bounce about, i understand the logic but its not on its nose. perhaps this situation is a result of lots of little things not worknig correctly :?:

as suggested, i think the next move is to check how much movement is left on the ball joints. i am kicking myself as i didnt measure the ride height when it was standard so i cant comment on far its been dropped :x

currently running 185/55/15's on the front, does anyone know what tyre pressures should they be at? will this make a big difference?

Pete B, i know you was kidding but not all essex people drive saxo's and i dont expect the van to drive like my s6 :lol:

 

[Trikky2]

i am kicking myself as i didnt measure the ride height when it was standard so i cant comment on far its been dropped :x

currently running 185/55/15's on the front, does anyone know what tyre pressures should they be at? will this make a big difference?

I just nipped out and measured a stock bay outside for you. So as to avoid the height change caused by your tyres I measured from the middle of the hubcap to the edge of the wheel arch. Its 41 cm.

On 185's your tyre pressures should be stock. Keep an eye on them using a tread depth guage. They should wear evenly across the tread. If they start to wear more in the middle then reduce the pressure by a couple of psi. If they start to wear faster at the edges than in the middle increase the pressure by 2 or 3 psi. I know it doesent sound very scientific but its the most accurate way of telling if your pressures are correct IMO.

 

[curly head]

i am kicking myself as i didnt measure the ride height when it was standard so i cant comment on far its been dropped :x

currently running 185/55/15's on the front, does anyone know what tyre pressures should they be at? will this make a big difference?

I just nipped out and measured a stock bay outside for you. So as to avoid the height change caused by your tyres I measured from the middle of the hubcap to the edge of the wheel arch. Its 41 cm.

On 185's your tyre pressures should be stock. Keep an eye on them using a tread depth guage. They should wear evenly across the tread. If they start to wear more in the middle then reduce the pressure by a couple of psi. If they start to wear faster at the edges than in the middle increase the pressure by 2 or 3 psi. I know it doesent sound very scientific but its the most accurate way of telling if your pressures are correct IMO.

trikky

cheers for doing that, i have just measured mine and its 31cm, therefore a 4" drop. as its only a mild drop i think the ball joints will be ok.

i think the way forward is to get 2.5" drop spindles and put the beam to the top adjuster, i can then raise / lower the back on the adjustable spring plates.

do you know what psi i should start with up front?

whereabouts are you in SW france?

dan

 

[Guest]

always interested in the best way to lower. It seems that our bus may have been dropped 1 spline at the back now looks a little high at the front. If I read the posts correctly if I am to even it up the best way is to lower the front using dropped spindles how much am I likley to have to go is this two inches or ... by using dropped spindles does it keep everything else up standard??? relatively new to all this and if we go down this route want to make sure do the right/best thing.

Cheers

Baz

standard buses are usually nose up anyway probably due to the weight at the back over the years causing the rear to sag slightly.

there are many methods to lower, red9 wishbone is another option but more expensive. spindles if your on a budget and adjusters the cheapest other than cutting and turning.

if you take it to somewhere like Slamwerks they can take the hassle out of it and you know your getting a pro job done.