Bird Rebuilds 1776! Job done, thanks for the help folks!!
- Thread starter Merlydog
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Well guys this thread doesn't seem to have spurred many opinions or expert advice but all the views it's had I shall continue to post in the hope that folk must be finding my fumblings useful?! :lol:
It's not so scary once it's in pieces.. Not much at all really? I'm sure I've had more nuts and bolts from doing interior work! :shock:
The only real piece that concerns me inside is this.. Difficult to get a picture as its minute but the edge of where the bearing fits looks a little damaged?
The Tom Wilson book suggests the shells have numbers stamped on them for sizes. Now either I'm missing something or mine doesn't have them. It just has this... Does that means they're original? :shock:
The crank looks ok to me. What do you think?
I'm going to take it with me to stateside tomorrow. Get him to give an expert opinion! Could be fooked for all I know?!
That's it really, cam is unmarked and original vw part but I'm sticking a milder one in so that's surplus to requirements.
Dishwasher got a bit of use today :shock:
It's not so scary once it's in pieces.. Not much at all really? I'm sure I've had more nuts and bolts from doing interior work! :shock:
The only real piece that concerns me inside is this.. Difficult to get a picture as its minute but the edge of where the bearing fits looks a little damaged?
The Tom Wilson book suggests the shells have numbers stamped on them for sizes. Now either I'm missing something or mine doesn't have them. It just has this... Does that means they're original? :shock:
The crank looks ok to me. What do you think?
I'm going to take it with me to stateside tomorrow. Get him to give an expert opinion! Could be fooked for all I know?!
That's it really, cam is unmarked and original vw part but I'm sticking a milder one in so that's surplus to requirements.
Dishwasher got a bit of use today :shock:
67panel said:
Listen to this fellow he knows his mustard!!!!
Porting and polishing the heads is the best place to put the hard work in, more can be gained on good head work than anywhere else in the engine.
I spent out on someone spending 2 weeks massaging my heads and manifolds, this is where you see the most performance gained.
Jimbly said:
No point going for dual springs unless your going wild,
Go for singles but replace them every 3 to 5 years (you will notice the difference)
if your going to all the effort and now getting the case machined for 90.5 and 1776cc personally I'd go for a mild 1915cc and 94mm B&P's it won't really cost anymore as you'll be paying for machining anyway so you may as well go for the best now rather than regret later?????
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDAQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftech.bentleypublishers.com%2Fservlet%2FJiveServlet%2Fdownload%2F51-37421-361516-6806%2FType%25202%25201600%2520Engine%2520Parts%2520List.pdf&ei=dXhkUMXbK5Ck0AXohoDIBg&usg=AFQjCNF9jxzk905bmuzXygKCNUvgWdkMqA&sig2=3ca30fwQ9-WZUt2lLvp7bA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
from what i can make out 070-105-537 is a 0.25 Under size Bearing 2 (65mm)
from what i can make out 070-105-537 is a 0.25 Under size Bearing 2 (65mm)
alex4057 said:
Ok Alex that sounds a fair point, will I need to do anything anywhere else. Other than the 94mm B&Ps, milder cam, full flow? If funds allow port the heads?! I'm not after anything crazy, just improved torque. I really don't want to have to arse about with the gearbox either!
So
Case checked and machined for full flow and 94mm B&P's
Stock Crank (either ligthened or stock) Flywheel, Clutch and a degree ring bottom pulley (makes life much easier when timing) All of this should be sent off as a job lot and get it balanced (not necessary but will help with engine longevity)
Stock rods
94mm B&P's
get heads machined for 94mm (talk to stateside he may recomend getting larger valves fitted at this stage too) New valve guides.
Port and Polish Heads and Manifolds this is something you can do yourself if you have the patience, just remember you can always take away more but adding more material is just NOT easy. This will make the most difference and always where people skrimp on money and time and therefore don't get the performance they were expecting. Once heads are sorted you will have the combustion chambers CC'd and worked evenly.
Dry Build to work out the deck heights
get B&P's machined to correct heights to give you the compression ratio you are after. (worked out using the chamber cc and deck heights.
New cam with Cam followers, New pushrods
Stock ratio rockers will work and this is somewhere you can always easily add more performance at a later date.
Uprated oil pump
am running oout of brain power tis late in the day.
From experience you will have to dry build and take apart the engine lots of times to take different measuremenst take ti aprt to tweak soemthing and then start the proceddings all over again.
This is how it is done properly!
You can buy the bits and just bolt them together but this is why most people are disapointed with their engines. Go the extar mile get the extra rewards!
most importantly ENJOY!!!! :mrgreen:
Case checked and machined for full flow and 94mm B&P's
Stock Crank (either ligthened or stock) Flywheel, Clutch and a degree ring bottom pulley (makes life much easier when timing) All of this should be sent off as a job lot and get it balanced (not necessary but will help with engine longevity)
Stock rods
94mm B&P's
get heads machined for 94mm (talk to stateside he may recomend getting larger valves fitted at this stage too) New valve guides.
Port and Polish Heads and Manifolds this is something you can do yourself if you have the patience, just remember you can always take away more but adding more material is just NOT easy. This will make the most difference and always where people skrimp on money and time and therefore don't get the performance they were expecting. Once heads are sorted you will have the combustion chambers CC'd and worked evenly.
Dry Build to work out the deck heights
get B&P's machined to correct heights to give you the compression ratio you are after. (worked out using the chamber cc and deck heights.
New cam with Cam followers, New pushrods
Stock ratio rockers will work and this is somewhere you can always easily add more performance at a later date.
Uprated oil pump
am running oout of brain power tis late in the day.
From experience you will have to dry build and take apart the engine lots of times to take different measuremenst take ti aprt to tweak soemthing and then start the proceddings all over again.
This is how it is done properly!
You can buy the bits and just bolt them together but this is why most people are disapointed with their engines. Go the extar mile get the extra rewards!
most importantly ENJOY!!!! :mrgreen:
Marriedblonde
Well-known member
I am loving this thread. The knowledge on this forum here is amazing.
(and no one pandering to the sponsors or only here to become a millionaire ;-) )
(and no one pandering to the sponsors or only here to become a millionaire ;-) )
KateLovesPurple
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I'm watching this thread with great interest. Love watching other builds. I didn't have time to rebuild mine last time but I think I might strip it soon and go for the 94mm B+P.
The only thing I would recomend on top of what has already been said is go for 1.25:1 rockers and bolt up shafts. The stock shafts and clips are a weak point if you start pushing it hard, especially if you intend to lighten the flywheel, it will rev much more quickly and free-er than stock.
Mines only a 1641 with twin 36DRLA's and a few nice tasty bits inside but it does have an 11 lb flywheel originally built for my fastback and used to rev very nicely and was good to put the car off the clock! Works very well in the bus now too.
The only thing I would recomend on top of what has already been said is go for 1.25:1 rockers and bolt up shafts. The stock shafts and clips are a weak point if you start pushing it hard, especially if you intend to lighten the flywheel, it will rev much more quickly and free-er than stock.
Mines only a 1641 with twin 36DRLA's and a few nice tasty bits inside but it does have an 11 lb flywheel originally built for my fastback and used to rev very nicely and was good to put the car off the clock! Works very well in the bus now too.
Well that's the case, crank and heads dropped with Jim at Stateside. He's a very busy chap but still gave me an hour of his time to explain all the requirements and options on offer for my upgrade. I found him knowledgable and patient, even with me limited experience!!
The first thing he pointed out was my case had been a genuine vw recon, this was identifiable by the small vw stamp located next to the AD engine code below the dyno stand, they also stamped a PU after the numbers and did this through the 70's and 80's. He said the case was a good one but unfortunately due to a 0.04mm wear to the rear thrust bearing opening it required line boring. A shame but doesn't effect the integrity of the case, but will improve its performance and future reliability. It will also mean bigger bearings.
The crank is all good, it had a regrind with the recon as Alex suggested earlier to 0.25mm so only needs a polish. He can't be sure until its stripped but remains optimistic for polish only. Whilst on the crank subject he did stress the quality of a genuine vw crank, the work Chinese crap factored into the conversation a lot today but more here than anywhere else! Stick with genuine vw here for quality it seems?
Something he did stress was to machine the rods and rebush for the grudge on pins. This is an absolute must by all accounts otherwise you get uneven wear on the case, crank and pistons and it will rapidly effect the longevity of the engine. I'd overlooked this but it's actually very important!
Barrels and Pistons were discussed and whether to go 94 or 90.5mm. Firstly quality; repro = Chinese and IF you can afford the extra go for mahle but..... Interestingly he informed me mahle have now moved manufacturing to china and standards have slipped. He has experienced rapid bearing wear on engines due to crap pistons so beware. He didn't however put any pressure on me whatsoever to go with repro or expensive B&Ps, he said its up to me but one just won't last as long as the other, that's it. For £100 in the scheme of things I think I'll invest in the better quality ones.
We discussed at length whether to go for the 90.5 or 94mm, basically it's up to you as the customer but what seems right for me is the 90.5mm. He suggested although not an absolute necessity, to do 94mm properly you really need to start adding better cooling to the engine because inevitably the bigger you go the more coolings required. I figured for what I want, extra torque and a wee but more umph, not of course wanting to start going crazy and no massive budget, 1776 is good for me. I know some of you will be thinking your crazy you have the option to go bigger for no extra cost but it's what's right for me. 1776 is tried and tested and will offer me solidarity and fewer 'extras' required.
Heads are good too, obviously they'll require machining for the pistons but we checked the valve guides too which had a very small amount of play so they'll get replaced. Next discussion was stainless valves, interestingly for whatever reason you can't get the stock S/S valves off the shelf so you have to machine the valve seats to get them to fit! My next question was how much difference are the S/S valves going to make to my mild 1776 build. Answer - not a lot. Hence why I'm sticking standard valves. Updated springs to suit the cam and that's the heads done. Should I port and polish? His option was not to bother on the engine I'm looking for, the gains would be minimal for the outlay. He did say try it without and if you feel like you want a bit more then it's perhaps something for a future upgrade. One for me to ponder I think.
Are you bored yet?
My last question was short block assembly at home. My concerns were me having all this work done to get it nice and reconditioned and then I bolt it back together at home without all the proper machinery and get something wrong. I explained how I wanted to do as much as I could myself for experience. He said yes of course I can do it myself but to just take my time and check the deck height!
The thing I did take away was he's a busy guy, says it like it is and wasn't after my money. He was encouraging me to do as much myself as I could as he didn't need the work! Knowledgable chap with much to offer I found.
Think that's it for now.. I'm off to start painting my engine tin, I was thinking pink, what do you reckon?! :lol:
The first thing he pointed out was my case had been a genuine vw recon, this was identifiable by the small vw stamp located next to the AD engine code below the dyno stand, they also stamped a PU after the numbers and did this through the 70's and 80's. He said the case was a good one but unfortunately due to a 0.04mm wear to the rear thrust bearing opening it required line boring. A shame but doesn't effect the integrity of the case, but will improve its performance and future reliability. It will also mean bigger bearings.
The crank is all good, it had a regrind with the recon as Alex suggested earlier to 0.25mm so only needs a polish. He can't be sure until its stripped but remains optimistic for polish only. Whilst on the crank subject he did stress the quality of a genuine vw crank, the work Chinese crap factored into the conversation a lot today but more here than anywhere else! Stick with genuine vw here for quality it seems?
Something he did stress was to machine the rods and rebush for the grudge on pins. This is an absolute must by all accounts otherwise you get uneven wear on the case, crank and pistons and it will rapidly effect the longevity of the engine. I'd overlooked this but it's actually very important!
Barrels and Pistons were discussed and whether to go 94 or 90.5mm. Firstly quality; repro = Chinese and IF you can afford the extra go for mahle but..... Interestingly he informed me mahle have now moved manufacturing to china and standards have slipped. He has experienced rapid bearing wear on engines due to crap pistons so beware. He didn't however put any pressure on me whatsoever to go with repro or expensive B&Ps, he said its up to me but one just won't last as long as the other, that's it. For £100 in the scheme of things I think I'll invest in the better quality ones.
We discussed at length whether to go for the 90.5 or 94mm, basically it's up to you as the customer but what seems right for me is the 90.5mm. He suggested although not an absolute necessity, to do 94mm properly you really need to start adding better cooling to the engine because inevitably the bigger you go the more coolings required. I figured for what I want, extra torque and a wee but more umph, not of course wanting to start going crazy and no massive budget, 1776 is good for me. I know some of you will be thinking your crazy you have the option to go bigger for no extra cost but it's what's right for me. 1776 is tried and tested and will offer me solidarity and fewer 'extras' required.
Heads are good too, obviously they'll require machining for the pistons but we checked the valve guides too which had a very small amount of play so they'll get replaced. Next discussion was stainless valves, interestingly for whatever reason you can't get the stock S/S valves off the shelf so you have to machine the valve seats to get them to fit! My next question was how much difference are the S/S valves going to make to my mild 1776 build. Answer - not a lot. Hence why I'm sticking standard valves. Updated springs to suit the cam and that's the heads done. Should I port and polish? His option was not to bother on the engine I'm looking for, the gains would be minimal for the outlay. He did say try it without and if you feel like you want a bit more then it's perhaps something for a future upgrade. One for me to ponder I think.
Are you bored yet?
My last question was short block assembly at home. My concerns were me having all this work done to get it nice and reconditioned and then I bolt it back together at home without all the proper machinery and get something wrong. I explained how I wanted to do as much as I could myself for experience. He said yes of course I can do it myself but to just take my time and check the deck height!
The thing I did take away was he's a busy guy, says it like it is and wasn't after my money. He was encouraging me to do as much myself as I could as he didn't need the work! Knowledgable chap with much to offer I found.
Think that's it for now.. I'm off to start painting my engine tin, I was thinking pink, what do you reckon?! :lol:
Oh I forgot full flow! For a type 2 early bay engine with support bar the full flow covers aren't recommended. He said you can get the offset versions but the way they do it is tap the case in two places, the oil usual oil galley spot above the oil pump and just behind that on the side of the case. Oil line out of one, through a filter and into the other, job done..
In addition when choosing my engine size I found the JMR FAQ's page really useful. For what it's worth this quote rang bells with me,
'For a street engine, in otherwords a daily driver, limit cylinder size to 90.5mm. This gives 1776cc with the stock 69mm crank. Next size up, 92mm (1835cc) has a thinner cylinder wall and won’t give as good long term service as the 90.5s. If you have a case and heads that have previously run with 92s, you can switch to the thicker 90.5s as the outside diameter of the two different bore cylinders are the same. 94mm cylinders (1914cc with the stock crank), need case and heads opening up further still. The 94mm cylinder has a thicker wall than the 92s but has less depth of cooling fin, therefore can’t dissipate heat as effectively as the smaller sizes'
http://www.johnmaherracing.co.uk/faq.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In addition when choosing my engine size I found the JMR FAQ's page really useful. For what it's worth this quote rang bells with me,
'For a street engine, in otherwords a daily driver, limit cylinder size to 90.5mm. This gives 1776cc with the stock 69mm crank. Next size up, 92mm (1835cc) has a thinner cylinder wall and won’t give as good long term service as the 90.5s. If you have a case and heads that have previously run with 92s, you can switch to the thicker 90.5s as the outside diameter of the two different bore cylinders are the same. 94mm cylinders (1914cc with the stock crank), need case and heads opening up further still. The 94mm cylinder has a thicker wall than the 92s but has less depth of cooling fin, therefore can’t dissipate heat as effectively as the smaller sizes'
http://www.johnmaherracing.co.uk/faq.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
68_early_bay
Well-known member
Well enjoyed this thread so far this is what I'm after 1776 but the 94mm b &p's sound tempting,
Did they give you an idea for the machining work price wise? I've got a spare tp engine in the shed waiting for this winter to start and I bet it'll want the same lol
Cheers
this is what I'm after 1776 but the 94mm b &p's sound tempting, Did they give you an idea for the machining work price wise? I've got a spare tp engine in the shed waiting for this winter to start and I bet it'll want the same lol
Cheers
Told you.
68_early_bay said:Well enjoyed this thread so far
Did they give you an idea for the machining work price wise? I've got a spare tp engine in the shed waiting for this winter to start and I bet it'll want the same lol
Cheers
Not yet.. I had to decide what work I wanted first but initial appox calculations £3-400 quids..
"They're top blokes, but only do things their way, take notice of what they say but keep a hold of your purse."
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