Type 1 Engine options – rough back-to-back bhp figures?

[Trikky2]

Thanks for the explanation Alex. Makes a bit more sense now. Glad I did mine when I did.

 

[Marriedblonde]

You can get a stroker engine kit from lime bug for about £2100, soon as you add forge pistons etc that sone creeps upto £3k to have it delivered. Add to this balancing you are over £3k already. You will also need to have heads machined etc all adding to the cost.

You then need to add dizzy, time ware, oil cooler, external oil cooler, alternator, fuel pump, carbs, exhaust etc...

I would say by the the time you are finished and have had it RR to be setup properly you will be looking at £5-6K easily and thats doing the build work and fitting yourself.

J.

 

[Dickie524]

Hmm - budget is about half that really! I'm torn between 1641 Twin Carb and 1776 Twin carb at the moment. My donor case might make it, but I haven't dropped the engine yet, let alone split it - I have parked another car right behind it which has since died so I can't even lift the engine lid right now!! I also have a few old ancillaries to sell which might contribute towards it a bit (prob only a hundred quid's worth though!!)

The TC setup you mention Alex does look good though is a bit over budget. Is it worth finding the cash, or is there aything else new which is worth bothering with.

I would appreciate the extra go, and the 'up front' cost difference might not be that big, and it is also a one-off expense. MPG's aren't going to be the end of the world as I can't imagine the annual mileage will be astronomical, (so long as it doesn't get too silly.

My worry is the longevity and levels of reliability in a 1776. I have been on some discussions which imply that hey are a bit over-stressed...? I thought 1776 was thought to be the optimal to be honest (especially as we originally wanted a 2.0l!)

It sounds like the Vintage Speed exhaust previously discussed would be worth it, although as stated a mild-steel loosely equivalent system might have to make do for a few years.

So many options! Spolt for choice... With my other classic car there are so few options (and vendors) at least you know what is possible and where to go!

 

[Alex VW Heritage]

The old adage of 1776cc being weak is so out of date but people do still hold onto it.

Yes the walls of the B&P's are thinner, but having abused my old 1776cc for 7 years, i then sold it and its still going strong in someone else's van.

P.s. here is an old pic of me 'looking after' my 1776cc :lol:

That engine has done 100 passes down the track probably an hour or two of solid burnout and 35,000 miles plus in my ownership and has been in soemone else's bus for 4 years now too

The only thing i broke was a snapped swivel foot adjuster.

Not scientific but works for me

 

[K@rlos]

My top spec 2110 cost just over £5500, but my engine builder is a good friend so I got mates rates and another friend brought most of the parts over from the states direct for me.

 

[Bluesnailman]

I'm no expert in this but have stated asking myself the same question. I found this the other week.

http://www.aircooled.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Must be plenty of opinions out there (yes, I know it wont be as good as a £5k engine, but how does it compare to stock?). Hope this isn't seen as a thread hijack - intended to take it forward

 

[Trikky2]

I'm no expert in this but have stated asking myself the same question. I found this the other week.

http://www.aircooled.net/1800cc-vw-engine-no-machine-combo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Must be plenty of opinions out there (yes, I know it wont be as good as a £5k engine, but how does it compare to stock?). Hope this isn't seen as a thread hijack - intended to take it forward

There is a lot of good honest advice in that article.

When building an upgraded engine its all too easy to get carried away, spend a lot more than originally intended and end up with an engine that develops a lot more power than you actually needed when you first started the process. Ask me how I know :lol:

The 1800 stroker described should give you a nice boost in torque and bhp. Stock is around 58 and I would estimate the 1800 with twin carbs and and a better exhaust would give you around an extra 20bhp, and around an extra 35 ftlb of torque - to take you to somewhere between 75 and 80 bhp.

20 bhp doesn't sound much but its around a 40% increase and with the extra torque (which is what you need in a bus) I think you will notice a significant improvement.

If using those barrels with the vey thin base edge I would recommend using a fine shim under the barrel to stop the edge cutting into the soft alloy of the case.

Obviously, for this budget build to work, you will need to enshure your engine case is in good order.

 

[AxlFoley]

just to give you an idea of cost, my 2110cc has cost about 6k and that's with no labour, but does include getting the tinware repainted. it is 99% new parts though. the main decision that i think needs to be made when building an engine is, are you going to run factory heat exchangers, as this limits valve sizes, which then determines carbs etc.

I'm running factory heat exchangers, and i made that decision early on and haven't changed.

as for the exhaust, I had a custom twin quiet pack made as I found the off the shelves ones didn't give the best ground clearance.



it also clears my tow bar.

 

[AxlFoley]

p.s. that exhaust is on my old engine, my new one still isn't fitted.

 

[SiDev]

Exhaust wise the VS is the cheapest stainless system you can get so you get the longevity out of it but yes your cirrect you can get a good flowing system for around the £100 mark if you go for mild steel.

If you have a local custom exhaust maker you might be able to get a stainless exhaust made up for less than the vintage speed one. Mine was £280 fitted, so worth a look if you want something different from the norm.

My full stainless header and muffler was £260 from Cool Air. VS exhausts are certainly not the cheapest stainless system.

 

[bigdaz]

I took my old engine to Paul at Harry Harpics and he said he would take it apart and let me know what was reusable.
Luckily my case had never been apart before so we reused it along with the rods and crank.
If a had just had 1776 pistons and a cam with rebuilt heads i could have got away with about £1200
But these things have a habit of running away with you so of course i went with big valve heads with Manley valves, roller feet, bolt up rockers HD oil pump ,wide mouth push rod tubes and other things i cant remember it was more like 2K.
But then you've got Carbs exhaust, external filter.
The 1776 is a good compromise , much more power than standard without the cost of a stroker.

 

[the_troupster]

I'd go with 92mm thick walls these days...

Cheers
Jim

PS There's an 82mm crank on VZi now...

http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=1216322

As said, very easy to get carried away lol. If you want to keep heat exchangers then I'd stay with a stock sized crank.

 

[ggn06awu]

As a relative newbie, I speak from reading (John Muir - How to Keep your VW Alive) and my mechanics advice purely; I get the impression many 1600 engines are running around with much less power than they left the factory with any way. This is due to the original oil bath filters getting removed (usually for twin carbs, but sometimes just for the cost savings) and the inappropriate but cheap 009 distributors getting installed instead of vacuum advance versions.

Having followed that advice, and getting the carb recalibrated, I got a hell of a decent boost in the power the van put down. Might be worth thinking about before going for a whole new rig, a lot cheaper to try...!

 

[Dickie524]

Interesting to read, and probably true!

So -did you get a vacuum advance dizzy installed? Would you have any reccomendations in that direction at all please?

Cheers Rich

 

[madmike]

Going to need your case linbored/thrust cut to fix the endfloat Bore to 90.5 or keep it a 1600, save ur $$ and keep it a 1600
My bus has these mods and can pull most hills in 4th (1600) and still get 25mpg :mrgreen: 26 w/tall wind :lol:
find some 40 IDF's to re-build.115mains/200airs/50idles 28mm vents
W110 cam, new Full flow 26mm pump for 'Flat cam'
Bugpack Header #2031-10 and dual mufflers #2535
full flow the case so a filter or a aux oil cooler for later if needed
mustashbar must be clearanced a little
Deep sump.
034 vac dizzy.
Fluff the heads (remove buggers,straight shot to the valves)
thses mods really woke up the bus, Now to fit a 5rib trans (4:86 R&P) then bump up to 2110cc come spring

 

[Dickie524]

Right guys, sorry to go round in circles but I *think* we are homing in on a decision...

I reckon I want to be able to use the bus this year, rather than chase engine perfection in the first season and with my first bus. So I thought we'd go for something relatively simple to kick things off - minimisng outlay but still replacing the heap that's in there... and as such, I reckon a 1641cc, keeping as much original hardware as possible, such as the 1641TP offered from VW Engine Company. However i DO still fancy twin carbs, so, given the constraints, what would be the reccomendation for a reasonably lively combination with one eye still on the budget? Twin Weber 34's? Or a little more?

Also - again apologies the 'newbie' question - is 1641cc single port possible? I've heard SP's are torqier for a given volume...

At the moment we are very short of time so unfortunately I would probably be looking for some carb combination thing off the shelf, which goes against the grain if anything I have ever done, but time is marching on and we are really keen to get the bus moving this season

Thanks again, Rich

 

[ggn06awu]

@Dickie524,

Regarding your question about my distributor comment, I used these guys (Pack 21, third from last):
http://accuspark.co.uk/DealPage.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ignore the site, they are were legit despite the site looking 20 years old!

 

[who?1]

Right guys, sorry to go round in circles but I *think* we are homing in on a decision...

I reckon I want to be able to use the bus this year, rather than chase engine perfection in the first season and with my first bus. So I thought we'd go for something relatively simple to kick things off - minimisng outlay but still replacing the heap that's in there... and as such, I reckon a 1641cc, keeping as much original hardware as possible, such as the 1641TP offered from VW Engine Company. However i DO still fancy twin carbs, so, given the constraints, what would be the reccomendation for a reasonably lively combination with one eye still on the budget? Twin Weber 34's? Or a little more?

Also - again apologies the 'newbie' question - is 1641cc single port possible? I've heard SP's are torqier for a given volume...

At the moment we are very short of time so unfortunately I would probably be looking for some carb combination thing off the shelf, which goes against the grain if anything I have ever done, but time is marching on and we are really keen to get the bus moving this season

Thanks again, Rich

Yes you can build a SP 1641, I have one in my bug with twin 34's and an Engle 110 cam. I match ported the heads and cleaned up all the burrs to help it flow and on the dyno it pulled 70bhp, I can't remember what jets ended up going in though. I am going to rebuild its as a TP next time and full flow it. I will then try it in the bus!!

 

[Dickie524]

Thanks again guys, all brilliant advice and is certainly helping me come to a decision on spec.
I think I need a Pack 21. Twin carbs on their way. Now to pick up an Engle 110 cam and we're motoring...

/R

 

[Dickie524]

OK So:

Carbs on their way (thanks to Mr Scoops on here)
Accuspark Pack 21 on its way from Accuspark (thanks to ggn06Awu for the tip - also Andy G says hi...)

Going to call VW Heritage tomorrow for my Engle 110 cam and some SP/ TC manifolds...

Splendid.

Off outside to do something to the van. Don't know what et but some minor job is bound to present itseld.

QI-XL is on but I've already seen this one...

/R